Graham Smith Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I agree that the chit chat needs to be cut out. However the rules dont allow for all the commands/instructions that I might need to give before the start signal. A few that come to mind are getting the squad to pipe down, telling the shooter to afix eyes/ears, your shoelace is untied, etc. If a shooter makes ready in response to any command other than "make ready" thats on them, no question. I fully concur that starting off with "Make Ready" does not cover all the bases. I frequently see RO's yell "Going Hot" or some variation and I think that this really should be the first command in the same way that "Range is Clear" is the last. It reminds the gallery to put on their ears and shut their yaps. The problem is that this is not the first official command and that's where I have to disagree with your comment about the shooter responding to any other command being on them. A new shooter or one with a poor command of English could get confused if they've been told that the first command is "Make Ready". It can get really confusing if there is more than one person ROing a stage and one person does it one way and another does it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I fully concur that starting off with "Make Ready" does not cover all the bases. I frequently see RO's yell "Going Hot" or some variation and I think that this really should be the first command in the same way that "Range is Clear" is the last. It reminds the gallery to put on their ears and shut their yaps. Make Ready reminds me -- in the gallery to make sure I find my ears. Standby has seen me plugging fingers into my ears..... Shooters/gallery could learn..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 If the RO's can't learn them from the rulebook, will printing them on a card make it any easier for them? Probably not. But printing them on the back of your shirt might! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Make Ready reminds me -- in the gallery to make sure I find my ears. Standby has seen me plugging fingers into my ears..... Shooters/gallery could learn..... I agree. But I've seen at least one occasion where there was someone downrange when "Make Ready" was called. As safety conscious as IPSC/USPSA is, I think that this is a significant omission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 That is an RO problem, not a command problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 That is an RO problem, not a command problem. I've been down range when this happened, fighting a swinger with another shooter. We didn't realize until we heard the squad going ape spit crazy. The shooter and RO both were so shook up, they came off of the line for a few minutes. Fortunately, a mag never made it near the gun... If I cant take a knee and see the whole CoF beneath walls, I will walk as far as necessary to see. I also count smaller squads and make sure we have everyone. Then I issue commands straight from the book... Troy taught my RO class and shoots with us at locals all of the time. He'd skin me alive and feed me a cigar stub if I didn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 That is an RO problem, not a command problem. Yes, but it could be alleviated in part by the addition of some kind of "range is no longer clear" command. This is commonly done on both civilian and military ranges with firing lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I think so....at least its available. What if someone at a local is an r.o., but never took the class. Happens often. You should encourage them to take a class and get certified as an RO. My personal opinion is you sholdn't RO unless you have had the training and know the rules and proper range commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I will walk as far as necessary to see. +1. I learned a simple range command acronym on this forum to start a CoF; MASS. Make ready Are you ready Standby Start (beep) USPSA will likely never have enough trained ROs at Level 1. You just have to do the best you can with what you have. You can watch YouTube vids of Level II and above and see ROs using unofficial commands. What do you do??? The best you can with what you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 While it is a tangent off this discussion, I think it's important to consider that whatever a RO may announce to the assembled squad/gallery before the shooter steps to the line for a "Make Ready" sequence is more a matter of safety and/or crowd control. Often the announcement that the "range is hot" or the question of "is it clear downrange" is made before the next shooter steps to the line. Though in practice such announcements often appear to be a first step in the make ready sequence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I think everyone can agree that the commands given need to match the rulebook so everyone has the same experience. However, if I know I am running a brand new shooter (first match shooter), I will help them a bit more with the commands and add a few in to make sure they know what they need to do. I will ask if they understand the COF and if it is a face uprange start position, I will say to face downrange to LAMR. After their first match, I tell them to make sure they know all the rules. Does this strictly follow the rules? No, but, like a puppy, you have to train them slow and give reminders at first. I think it helps and make them feel like someone is looking out for them until they get into the sport a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 While it is a tangent off this discussion, I think it's important to consider that whatever a RO may announce to the assembled squad/gallery before the shooter steps to the line for a "Make Ready" sequence is more a matter of safety and/or crowd control. Often the announcement that the "range is hot" or the question of "is it clear downrange" is made before the next shooter steps to the line. Though in practice such announcements often appear to be a first step in the make ready sequence... How about instead of asking if it is clear downrange, you verify with your own eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 If the RO's can't learn them from the rulebook, will printing them on a card make it any easier for them? Yes and no. As crib notes it would work. The rule book is packed full of confusion. A card is simple. Of course who knows where their card is, or at least who looks at it? I'd like to see it taken care of at the club level, either on cards or even printed on the score sheets. Just as a reminder for those who have forgotten, and those who never knew in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarmyaviator Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Probably not. But printing them on the back of your shirt might! I'm going to have to have one of those. If for nothing else to see the ROs face when he sees it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 While it is a tangent off this discussion, I think it's important to consider that whatever a RO may announce to the assembled squad/gallery before the shooter steps to the line for a "Make Ready" sequence is more a matter of safety and/or crowd control. Often the announcement that the "range is hot" or the question of "is it clear downrange" is made before the next shooter steps to the line. Though in practice such announcements often appear to be a first step in the make ready sequence... How about instead of asking if it is clear downrange, you verify with your own eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Of all the rules questions we have here that one will go down as one of the easiest in history. 40 posts and going strong!! Who says the posters on the rules forum cannot keep a thread going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul788 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Per Troy's advice, printed the commands on address labels and stuck them on the timer. And I read them off the same way every time. Not smart, just good teaching. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dand38s Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Probably not. But printing them on the back of your shirt might! I'm going to have to have one of those. If for nothing else to see the ROs face when he sees it. I would like to have a shirt made like that also. Any creative person that can design a good shirt here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Make Ready reminds me -- in the gallery to make sure I find my ears. Standby has seen me plugging fingers into my ears..... Shooters/gallery could learn..... I agree. But I've seen at least one occasion where there was someone downrange when "Make Ready" was called. As safety conscious as IPSC/USPSA is, I think that this is a significant omission. That's an RO failure -- not a range command failure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 That is an RO problem, not a command problem. Doh! Beat me to it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 That is an RO problem, not a command problem. Doh! Beat me to it.... I think I might have read that on this board somewhere before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I think everyone can agree that the commands given need to match the rulebook so everyone has the same experience. However, if I know I am running a brand new shooter (first match shooter), I will help them a bit more with the commands and add a few in to make sure they know what they need to do. I will ask if they understand the COF and if it is a face uprange start position, I will say to face downrange to LAMR. After their first match, I tell them to make sure they know all the rules. Does this strictly follow the rules? No, but, like a puppy, you have to train them slow and give reminders at first. I think it helps and make them feel like someone is looking out for them until they get into the sport a bit more. LAMR is not an official range command in USPSA. MR is. If you want to say LAMR, go to an IPSC match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jriera Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 LAMR is not an official range command in USPSA. MR is. If you want to say LAMR, go to an IPSC match. Coming from a IPSC background I need to remind myself about MR every time ... and I'm not even a certified RO anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I agree that the chit chat needs to be cut out. However the rules dont allow for all the commands/instructions that I might need to give before the start signal. A few that come to mind are getting the squad to pipe down, telling the shooter to afix eyes/ears, your shoelace is untied, etc. If a shooter makes ready in response to any command other than "make ready" thats on them, no question. I fully concur that starting off with "Make Ready" does not cover all the bases. I frequently see RO's yell "Going Hot" or some variation and I think that this really should be the first command in the same way that "Range is Clear" is the last. It reminds the gallery to put on their ears and shut their yaps. The problem is that this is not the first official command and that's where I have to disagree with your comment about the shooter responding to any other command being on them. A new shooter or one with a poor command of English could get confused if they've been told that the first command is "Make Ready". It can get really confusing if there is more than one person ROing a stage and one person does it one way and another does it differently. That's a good point about the language barrier. Non-English 1st language shooters is something I see from time to time, as well as folks that have hearing issues. If I have to deviate from MR being the 1st command I will put my hand on the shooters shoulder, make eye contact, and offer whatever instruction is needed. I still put it at the feet of the competitor to know enough English, the official language of USPSA, to safely complete the COF. For example I don't know "STOP" in any other language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOA Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 An RO is someone who has taken the NROI class and passed the test. The guy with the timer is just a guy with a timer. I am a friendly RO, but I am very serious about the range commands and the safety aspects of ROing. It really bothers me when a guy with a timer is asking me if I understand the course of fire, telling to unload that puppy and holster it and any number of other non range commands. If you are going to RO at least learn the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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