No Shoots in Incorrect Location

[theycallmeingot]

At a level II match, for a whole squad of shooters, the clipboard RO puts tally marks for no shoots up beside the noshoot box, and apparently forgets to write any number in the box.

Score sheets are turned into the stats shack, periodically throughout the day, as they do. The error is caught in the stats shack.

What is the proper course of action?

I am not as familiar with the rules as I should be, so I'm just curious what should have been done.

there were 2 or 3 shooters who actually had no shoots. None of them were put inside the box. Just a mark outside the box.

[Sarge]

You know, you are going to get told several times in this thread that the shooter is responsible for ensuring his scoresheet is correct before signing it.

That being put out of the way for now, if the RO can tell me with 100% certainty that those are the marks he made and exactly what they represent I would tally them and enter them in the score. If there is any doubt, different story.

Of course I can see a "gamer" deliberately not pointing it out in order to get out of the no shoots.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Sarge

[theycallmeingot]

You know, you are going to get told several times in this thread that the shooter is responsible for ensuring his scoresheet is correct before signing it.

That being put out of the way for now, if the RO can tell me with 100% certainty that those are the marks he made and exactly what they represent I would tally them and enter them in the score. If there is any doubt, different story.

am i correct that that "responsibility" is given to the shooter, so that he can't come back later and say "no, my time was 21.53, NOT 27.53.", because he's already signed it? Is it also his responsibility to make sure the RO put the numbers in the right place?

EDIT: more specifically, does the competitor AND the RO signing off on it, make it final? The shooter could have checked it, noticed there was nothing in the noshoot box, and signed it anyway, knowing he actually shot a no shoot. Does that mean they can't change it after the fact?

Edited September 5, 2012 by theycallmeingot

[HoMiE]

from the rule book...

9.7.6.4 Procedural penalties recorded on the score sheet will be deemed

complete and conclusive, except where Rule 8.6.2 applies.

[theycallmeingot]

from the rule book...

9.7.6.4 Procedural penalties recorded on the score sheet will be deemed

complete and conclusive, except where Rule 8.6.2 applies.

surely this also means LACK of procedural penalties, as well?

as in, either it's there, or it's not. after it's signed it is final?

I heard there is a rule where the time must be IN the time box, the procedurals must be IN the procedural box, etc., but I can't find it.

[HoMiE]

If it was written on the scorecard, but just not placed into the box, competitior would have been deemed to earn it. Thats why stats should get posted and competitor be given an hour to review for any mistakes. Now if stats didnt catch it and competitor didnt step up and say hey i had 2 no-shoots, then the shooter got a freebie.

[HoMiE]

from the rule book...

9.7.6.4 Procedural penalties recorded on the score sheet will be deemed

complete and conclusive, except where Rule 8.6.2 applies.

surely this also means LACK of procedural penalties, as well?

as in, either it's there, or it's not. after it's signed it is final?

I heard there is a rule where the time must be IN the time box, the procedurals must be IN the procedural box, etc., but I can't find it.

It should go in the box the I don't remember or find a rule that says it must go into the box. Thats why if there are ticks on the score sheet and you dont know what they are for you should scratch them out and fill in box or make sure what score is for and check your scores within the hour of scores being posted for any arbitration.

If stats caught it, they should get RO (to confirm what the ticks are for) and competitor make corrections and apply rule 9.7.2

9.7.2 If corrections to the score sheet are required, these will be clearly

entered onto the original and other copies of the competitor’s score

sheets. The competitor and the Range Officer should initial any corrections.

Edited September 5, 2012 by HoMiE

[theycallmeingot]

from the rule book...

9.7.6.4 Procedural penalties recorded on the score sheet will be deemed

complete and conclusive, except where Rule 8.6.2 applies.

surely this also means LACK of procedural penalties, as well?

as in, either it's there, or it's not. after it's signed it is final?

I heard there is a rule where the time must be IN the time box, the procedurals must be IN the procedural box, etc., but I can't find it.

It should go in the box the I don't remember or find a rule that says it must go into the box. Thats why if there are ticks on the score sheet and you dont know what they are for you should scratch them out and fill in box or make sure what score is for and check your scores within the hour of scores being posted for any arbitration.

in this particular instance, the competitor was approached about a half hour later by an RO, with scorecard in hand. Something along the lines of "I can't technically give you this noshoot. Unless you admit to it."

This lead me to believe that because it was not in the box, it technically should not count as a noshoot, even though everyone apparently knew what the tally marks were there for.

[Skydiver]

The rule you are looking for is 9.7.1:

9.7.1 .. Whole numbers should be used to record all scores or penalties. ...

Hash marks do not count. Yes, even if the solitary hash mark looks like "1" is how it was taught to me. If the mark isn't in the box, it's hash mark and not a whole number.

[twodownzero]

I would arb every single one of them.

Ain't on the page, ain't on the stage.

ROs at level II matches should know how to fill out a score sheet.

[HoMiE]

Hash marks do not count. Yes, even if the solitary hash mark looks like "1" is how it was taught to me. If the mark isn't in the box, it's hash mark and not a whole number.

I would arb every single one of them.

Ain't on the page, ain't on the stage.

ROs at level II matches should know how to fill out a score sheet.

At some point, people should just "man up" and admit that there was an error. Stats caught it and and Ro approached competitor. If that's how you want to play, then that's on you. I agree that ROs should know how to fill out a score sheet, and the rules say whole numbers should be used, doesn't say has to be in any "box" on score sheet. So it works both ways, if competitor sees a tick or a number or hash on scoresheet you should ask RO what that is for and have it crossed out and inititaled as well.

Edited September 5, 2012 by HoMiE

[theycallmeingot]

Hash marks do not count. Yes, even if the solitary hash mark looks like "1" is how it was taught to me. If the mark isn't in the box, it's hash mark and not a whole number.

I would arb every single one of them.

Ain't on the page, ain't on the stage.

ROs at level II matches should know how to fill out a score sheet.

At some point, people should just "man up" and admit that there was an error. Stats caught it and and Ro approached competitor. If that's how you want to play, then that's on you. I agree that ROs should know how to fill out a score sheet, and the rules say whole numbers should be used, doesn't say has to be in any "box" on score sheet. So it works both ways, if competitor sees a tick or a number or hash on scoresheet you should ask RO what that is for and have it crossed out and inititaled as well.

2 competitors "manned up" to their no shoots. (i'm unclear as to whether any more competitors were approached.) If it were my scoresheet, I would have manned up to it as well. However, I think it's kind of tacky to come around after the fact, putting people on the spot, in front of the rest of their squad, to be honest. NOTE: The question was not "Did you hit a noshoot?" It was "...unless you want to admit to it." Implying everyone's mind was made up that there WAS a no shoot, but were giving him the chance to admit it, or else look like a liar in front his squad.

[Poppa Bear]

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

9.7.5 If a score sheet is found to have insufficient or excess entries, or if the

time has not been recorded on the score sheet, the competitor will be

required to reshoot the course of fire.

9.7.6 In the event that a reshoot is not possible or permissible for any reason,

the following actions will prevail:

9.7.6.4 Procedural penalties recorded on the score sheet will be deemed

complete and conclusive, except where Rule 8.6.2 applies.

The first thing done will be a talk with the competitor. They own up, the sheets are properly marked. OK

If the shooter disagrees with the scoring then it is up to the RM to decide. He can either rule the sheets as proper and have the numbers written into the proper box using 9.7.6.4, or he can order the shooter to reshoot the stage using 9.7.5.

The shooter will not get the penalties taken away just because the number of hash marks were not recorded into the box. If there is any disagreement as to whether the shooter hit the no shoots or not he will have to reshoot the stage to get a valid score.

[sperman]

9.7.1 also states:

"The Range Officer must enter all information on each competitor's score sheet prior to signing it."

Once the RO and competitor sign the score sheet, it is official. If the RO forgot to add up the penalties and put the number in the appropriate box, it is really too late at that point. I think most competitors would want their score to be correct, but per the rule book, they are under no obligation to accept the corrected score sheet after the RO signs it.

[sperman]

The shooter will not get the penalties taken away just because the number of hash marks were not recorded into the box. If there is any disagreement as to whether the shooter hit the no shoots or not he will have to reshoot the stage to get a valid score.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Read 9.7.4 again.

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

[Poppa Bear]

This falls into the RM's decision. If the Shooter says I did not hit them they must be stray marks, and the RO says they were hit, then it is up to the RM. He can decide that the competitor reshoots the stage due to an inability to accurately score the stage, or he can decide that the hash marks were a valid recording of the hits and order the sheet to be changed to reflect this.

It is a choice the shooter has to make because the competitor has to abide with the RM's decision. We all know how sometimes the reshoot gods smile on us and at other times they bite us. If the RM orders a reshoot then it has to be reshot.

[sperman]

I don't see anything in 9.7.X that gives the RM the authority to order a re-shoot.

ETA: and as SkyDiver pointed out, hash marks next to the box do not count. The RM has no authority to say hashmarks next to the box are the same as a whole number in the box.

Edited September 5, 2012 by sperman

[coldchar]

This is a real dumb gamer issue, there is no rule that says the total of the hash marks has to be in the box. I run score sheets each month and some of them have names routinely seen in our USPSA magazine, I am perfectly capable of adding up the hash marks.

Jim

[theycallmeingot]

This is a real dumb gamer issue, there is no rule that says the total of the hash marks has to be in the box. I run score sheets each month and some of them have names routinely seen in our USPSA magazine, I am perfectly capable of adding up the hash marks.

Jim

and you know with certainty that if there is what appears to be a single line in the general vicinity of a noshoot box, that they actually meant to put a number 1 in the box, indicating that there was 1 no shoot?

I don't really see the point in having competitors sign off on a score sheet, if said score sheet can just be changed under a hunch in the stats shack afterwards.

[kevin c]

I agree with coldchar.

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

This is basically an arithmatic error. The penalties are not in the box, bur are on the page. They just were not added up and put into the box. So, instead of "zero" penalties, stats confirms that the marks made by the RO are actually penalties and corrects the zero to what ever # of penalties were earned.

When the competitor signs the score sheet with incorrectly added up hits, the signature acknowleges that the raw numbers are correct and can be added up appropriately. That applies to penalties as well.

I don't think that the scoresheets even needed to go back to the competitor.

[Skydiver]

Counting up the hash marks is incorrect. As noted earlier whole numbers must be used. Even if you say that there is a big gaping hole for the no shoots box, but there are hash marks beside it, then I refer you to:

9.7.6.2 If insufficient hits or misses have been recorded on the score sheet, the hits and misses which have been recorded will be deemed complete and conclusive.

Since no whole number was written in the box for no-shoots, then "the hits ... which have been recorded will be deemed complete and conclusive". No hits in the box means no no-shoot hit penalties.

Edit after: changed "adding up" to "counting up" since one counts hash marks. One doesn't add hash marks.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Skydiver

[theycallmeingot]

When the competitor signs the score sheet with incorrectly added up hits, the signature acknowleges that the raw numbers are correct and can be added up appropriately. That applies to penalties as well.

in other words, you're saying that the competitor should clarify what the hashmarks are for, prior to signing, and either have them crossed out if they are nothing, or added if they are indeed meant to represent noshoots? otherwise, any mark that may appear to represent something (even if not in the box) can be counted later?

[Skydiver]

A counting error is different from an arithmetic error. The RO failed to count the hash marks and put it into the no-shoot box. No correction is allowed since it was not an arithmetic error. On the other hand, if the total time for a multi-string stage is added incorrectly, or the sum of the columns for C hits was added incorrectly, then a correction is allowed as per 9.7.4.

[sperman]

I wish the score sheets created by EZWinScore had a column for no-shoots, that could be added up just like the columns for hits. It would be very hard to screw this up if No Shoots had their own column, instead of a box at the bottom right of the page.

[theycallmeingot]

I wish the score sheets created by EZWinScore had a column for no-shoots, that could be added up just like the columns for hits. It would be very hard to screw this up if No Shoots had their own column, instead of a box at the bottom right of the page.

i see a slight logistical error with that. how would it know how many boxes to make? if you have as little as one noshoot target on the stage, there is an infinite number of possible noshoot hits that someone can get.