FTE NPM on Star

[Poppa Bear]

This is entirely hypothetical and I received a ruling form a NROI RM as to how they would call it. This is just to stir the pot to see how you would call it.

You have a star BEHIND hard cover so that 3 of the 5 plates are hidden (The top 3). The shooter shoots twice at the star missing the bottom two plates, and then shoots the rest of the course. Do you give him 3 FTE and 5 Misses? OR, 2 Misses, 3 No Penalty Misses, and ZERO FTE's?

Would you rule different if the star was weighted so that shooting a popper pulled a prop stick out and started the star spinning?

[wide45]

3 Fail to shoot at penalty

5 mike

If no targets were hit, and the star never turned, it is an easy one to score if you are sure the competitor took one shot at each plate visible.

Targets are not disappearing. Failing to activate, or cause them to appear results in miss and failure to shoot penalties.

If you can not accurately determine the number of plates shot at, such as if the star was spinning, a reshoot would be the correct result. Pretty sure nobody actually does this.

Edited August 25, 2012 by wide45

[OUshooter]

5 mikes

5 fte

It seems that 9.9.3 is in play regardless of there being a prop stick. The intent of the star is that it spins once a plate is shot off. It would be pointless to have a pinned star covered by HC. Therefore, the competitor never activated the target movement.

[Poppa Bear]

Wide is correct that a star is considered a moving target. Even though 3 of the 5 plates are hidden behind HC, failing to take at least one plate is the same as not activating the device. Failing to activate the device means that ALL remaining targets are scored as Fail To Engage. The key element for a disappearing target is not if it is hidden in its start position, but is it hidden in its rest position.

The reason for the discussion was that a stage had part of the star behind HC and I was trying to wrap my head around which penalties would apply if the shooter failed to take any plates, 1 plate, 2 plates and I could not reconcile in my head the FTE penalties for plates hidden behind HC until I realized that it is all based on the plates position at rest. It cannot come to rest until it is at least one plate is removed to activate it.

I was waiting for the star to stop with at least one plate balanced at the top. It never did, but it did come close enough that it sat for several seconds before it slooowly tipped one way or the other.

[OUshooter]

OK I'm confused....which happens once every 10yrs.

Wide called it as 3 FTE's, and I called it 5 FTE's.

However, you said that "Failing to activate the device means that ALL remaining targets are scored as Fail To Engage"

So how is that 3 FTEs and not 5?

[gino_aki]

OK I'm confused....which happens once every 10yrs.

Wide called it as 3 FTE's, and I called it 5 FTE's.

However, you said that "Failing to activate the device means that ALL remaining targets are scored as Fail To Engage"

So how is that 3 FTEs and not 5?

'Cause the OP stipulated that the shooter shot at the bottom two exposed plates but missed so 3 FTE's and 5 mikes.

[OUshooter]

OK I'm confused....which happens once every 10yrs.

Wide called it as 3 FTE's, and I called it 5 FTE's.

However, you said that "Failing to activate the device means that ALL remaining targets are scored as Fail To Engage"

So how is that 3 FTEs and not 5?

'Cause the OP stipulated that the shooter shot at the bottom two exposed plates but missed so 3 FTE's and 5 mikes.

Which makes perfect sense. However,

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiate the target movement.

Its just the way I read it that it doesn't matter how many rounds you bang away with at a moving target if you don't cause it to "activate the mechanism" you are penalized for a mike and a FTE.

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a

course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty

per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties

for misses.

Which common sense tells that if the shooter as described by the OP shot 2 rounds you would assess 3 FTE's. As was stated by Wide if the RO can't determine if the shooter was trying to hit each plate it's a reshoot.

[Flexmoney]

OU...I'll bet there is a dedicated thread that speaks to your very point.

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Just a point of order on the OP. You aren't shooting a "star". You are shooting plates (that happen to be on a star apparatus).

[Sarge]

Just a point of order on the OP. You aren't shooting a "star". You are shooting plates (that happen to be on a star apparatus).

Thought the same thing. A star is just a plate rack in a circle. If you look at the websites that sell these things(Which I am doing a lot of right now) they fall under the category of "gravity". Does this mean that Mother Nature activates them and not the shooter? Another point is, a fully exposed star if the top plate is dead center and you shoot it off the star does not move. So you still did not activate it?

I agree that a star is not a target but a holder for 5 targets.

[HI5-O]

5 mikes and 3 fte

[Poppa Bear]

Which is why I asked if you would rule different if the star was activated by a popper and a prop stick.

Until at least one plate is taken the star is not activated just like until that popper/prop stick is taken the star is not activated.

We will run this two ways based on clock position. Situation one the star is blocked by Hard Cover No Shoots so that 2,4,8, and 10 cannot be engaged. Taking 12 or 6 leaves the star so that at rest 2,4,8, and 10 are behind HC. This leaves you with a bunch of NPM's once the star is at rest. You arrange the NS so that it only covers the top of the star so that 9 O'clock through 3 O'clock is covered and all targets are available at some point once the star is activated. You shoot 5 (FIVE) rounds at the star and it is virtually impossible to hit you with FTE's, but you will get hit with misses on all targets that are not taken off because no target will come to rest behind HC if the available targets in the 3 O'clock to 9 O'clock positions are taken.

Admittedly this was more about how someone might try to game the stage than any thing else, but this would be the type of situation that an RO could run into and it is important that the RO knows how to make the appropriate call based not on the stars start position but rather on the stars rest position, and what constitutes activation.

This is an easy call if the star is fully visible, but how do you call it if partially hidden behind HC with targets still available, or not available?

[wide45]

Still simple. Can the competitor make the hidden targets appear?

[Poppa Bear]

Still simple. Can the competitor make the hidden targets appear?

Exactly