seod Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 This was my first season going to 3-gun club matches. The matches I went to were at the same club. I had never attended a match and had only seen matches online and on youtube. A lot of the stages were designed where you could only shoot the stage using your weak hand, or were only allowed to shoot one handed and on your knees and then move to prone. They would set rules like, you had to have a sling on your rifle...but then would allow some people to not have a sling. Some people were told to shoot the course in a specific order, and then another group was told to shoot it in a COMPLETELY different order - which would end up being faster, thus scoring higher. You were told that you had to shoot X amount of targets, but then later told you were DQ'd because you weren't fast enough, thus your hits didn't count. The rules seemed vague most of the time, and only told what I was "supposed" to have done after the score were released. At the beginning of each stage, I was always asked "You understand the course?" I would always ask for it to be explained to me. But....some "secret" and unique rule to that stage always seemed to come about after the fact. By the end of this season, I feel like I was in a trick-shoot competition and always uncertain whether someone else was "allowed" to change the rules as they went along. After all that....don't get me wrong...All in all, the shoots were fun. I am hyped about training in the off-season and looking forward to next year, but is this how the majority of 3-gun shoots operate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prreed10 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Nope. Most around here are run & gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Nope. Most around here are run & gun. Yeah....thats what I thought. I had never seen rules like this on any of the courses I saw on for the 3-gun tour. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 That was not what we call 3Gun. Based on your description, those are some made up homer rules and run totally contrary to how the good folks who shoot and run the majority of the three gun matches do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 That was not what we call 3Gun. Based on your description, those are some made up homer rules and run totally contrary to how the good folks who shoot and run the majority of the three gun matches do it. I think I need to branch out next season, and look for some other clubs/events and get some more exposure. Thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanopistol Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I have been to matches where the home team always seemed to win, were in a distinct group from the others and understood the rules a little better than everyone else. It is not common, but unfortunately it happens. Two things to do about it: shoot somewhere else or get involved. Shooting somewhere else is not always a possibility, I understand. Sometimes the next closes matches is 2-4 hours away or always during the Saturday you have to be at the in-laws, etc. So, get involved in the group, express your concerns in club meetings, offer to post solid, extensive stage descriptions ahead of time. And emphasize rules, they're all out there and can't really be bent if you articulate them clearly. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 I have been to matches where the home team always seemed to win, were in a distinct group from the others and understood the rules a little better than everyone else. It is not common, but unfortunately it happens. Two things to do about it: shoot somewhere else or get involved. Shooting somewhere else is not always a possibility, I understand. Sometimes the next closes matches is 2-4 hours away or always during the Saturday you have to be at the in-laws, etc. So, get involved in the group, express your concerns in club meetings, offer to post solid, extensive stage descriptions ahead of time. And emphasize rules, they're all out there and can't really be bent if you articulate them clearly. Good luck! That does seem to be the case. It is about an hour and half drive to get there, and the next one is at least an hour past that one. The scarey part, is that they have been doing these events for the last six years. You would think they would have it together by now. I can see why the numbers of people have dwindled throughout the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 What part of the country are you from Seod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 What part of the country are you from Seod? South Dakota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUshooter Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I will have to echo the sentiments of the other posters. Here in the Sooner State we run and gun. Rarely are you forced into non-freestyle positions. There is the occasional VTAC wall, but mostly the stages are presented and you solve them as you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 I will have to echo the sentiments of the other posters. Here in the Sooner State we run and gun. Rarely are you forced into non-freestyle positions. There is the occasional VTAC wall, but mostly the stages are presented and you solve them as you wish. Yeah. I like that approach. "There are the targets. Go...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I have been to one that had oddball rules, and penalties that nobody could explain to me. I haven't been back. I don't mind a different rule set, but you need to have a copy available for the competitor someplace. We have mandated positions for long range rifle and you will even see that at USPSA Nationals. They won't mandate prone or sitting, but from tower "A" or ramp "B". Most matches will also have a max time on their courses. If you are unable to finish it in that time you will be told to unload and show clear. Penalties may vary from marking you down the max time to marking the max time plus any targets you didn't get to yet. You are never DQ'd because you took too long. A DQ means packing up your gear because you are done for the day. I grew up in NE South Dakota, and spent 3 years in Rapid City so I know how the drives can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 I have been to one that had oddball rules, and penalties that nobody could explain to me. I haven't been back. I don't mind a different rule set, but you need to have a copy available for the competitor someplace. We have mandated positions for long range rifle and you will even see that at USPSA Nationals. They won't mandate prone or sitting, but from tower "A" or ramp "B". Most matches will also have a max time on their courses. If you are unable to finish it in that time you will be told to unload and show clear. Penalties may vary from marking you down the max time to marking the max time plus any targets you didn't get to yet. You are never DQ'd because you took too long. A DQ means packing up your gear because you are done for the day. I grew up in NE South Dakota, and spent 3 years in Rapid City so I know how the drives can be. There are never any written rules, which I think leads to the confusion by the range masters when explaining how to run a course. The courses change every month, and they like creating new and "exciting" ways how to shoot. My first match there was shooting pistol laying on my weak side on the ground, while shooting the plates off a texas star. I remember the rule was if you sat up or turned to your stomach you be DQ'd from the stage. Fun....but it made me scratch my head. I have learned that their meaning of DG'd means that you didn't complete the stage the way they wanted you to do it. You might have been safe the whole time, but you didn't shoot it the way they wanted. Frustrating. I might just drive the extra hour next year and go to another shoot. Thanks for everyone's input. Glad to know it isn't just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 So they don't even have written stage briefings? I would bring it up if you go again, but I don't know if it would make any difference. In this I added a picture of the stage brief before every stage. It isn't meant to be a replacement for the rule book, but it provides the RO/shooters guidance so everyone is shooting the same stage.If that is all you have that's all you have, but I don't think I would enjoy myself. I'm probably a little spoiled though. See what you can do to change their minds in the off season. At least posting a written stage brief and sending out an email with standardized rules would go a long way. Don't try to change the whole match at one go though. Let them have the mandated shooting positions for now. Another option is to volunteer to design/build a freestyle stage. It may be a lot of work but think of all the future drive time you will save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anopsis Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 My first exposure to run-n-gun competitive shooting was non-sanctioned 3 gun at a local club. It was much like you describe, with nothing written, lots of specific shooting positions, and a MD that made up or adjusted rules on the fly. It got so bad that we started calling the match "Joe Gun" instead of 3 Gun, because it was whatever Joe (name changed to protect the guilty) wanted it to be. When I went to my first USPSA shoot I couldn't believe all the rules. Quickly fell into it though, and now I'm a stickler for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 I like rules and I like them to be written down. I think there is a sanctioned shoot about 2 and half hours away. I might go it to see how it is. Probably be like night and day. A lot of the guys trade off every month on who is going to do the course. They always there is an email that goes out, but I keep signing up for it, and I never get it. I think the only infor they ever give is the amount of minimum required rounds needed for the whole course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanopistol Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I will have to echo the sentiments of the other posters. Here in the Sooner State we run and gun. Rarely are you forced into non-freestyle positions. There is the occasional VTAC wall, but mostly the stages are presented and you solve them as you wish. Mmmm, VTAC walls...in fact, I like any 3gun obstacle that screw-balls with the computers, as long as it is an equal opportunity screwer-baller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 This was my first season going to 3-gun club matches. The matches I went to were at the same club. I had never attended a match and had only seen matches online and on youtube. A lot of the stages were designed where you could only shoot the stage using your weak hand, or were only allowed to shoot one handed and on your knees and then move to prone. They would set rules like, you had to have a sling on your rifle...but then would allow some people to not have a sling. Some people were told to shoot the course in a specific order, and then another group was told to shoot it in a COMPLETELY different order - which would end up being faster, thus scoring higher. You were told that you had to shoot X amount of targets, but then later told you were DQ'd because you weren't fast enough, thus your hits didn't count. The rules seemed vague most of the time, and only told what I was "supposed" to have done after the score were released. At the beginning of each stage, I was always asked "You understand the course?" I would always ask for it to be explained to me. But....some "secret" and unique rule to that stage always seemed to come about after the fact. By the end of this season, I feel like I was in a trick-shoot competition and always uncertain whether someone else was "allowed" to change the rules as they went along. After all that....don't get me wrong...All in all, the shoots were fun. I am hyped about training in the off-season and looking forward to next year, but is this how the majority of 3-gun shoots operate? Sounds like any big match I have ever attended! Just kidding! After thinking about it, maybe not kidding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 This was my first season going to 3-gun club matches. The matches I went to were at the same club. I had never attended a match and had only seen matches online and on youtube. A lot of the stages were designed where you could only shoot the stage using your weak hand, or were only allowed to shoot one handed and on your knees and then move to prone. They would set rules like, you had to have a sling on your rifle...but then would allow some people to not have a sling. Some people were told to shoot the course in a specific order, and then another group was told to shoot it in a COMPLETELY different order - which would end up being faster, thus scoring higher. You were told that you had to shoot X amount of targets, but then later told you were DQ'd because you weren't fast enough, thus your hits didn't count. The rules seemed vague most of the time, and only told what I was "supposed" to have done after the score were released. At the beginning of each stage, I was always asked "You understand the course?" I would always ask for it to be explained to me. But....some "secret" and unique rule to that stage always seemed to come about after the fact. By the end of this season, I feel like I was in a trick-shoot competition and always uncertain whether someone else was "allowed" to change the rules as they went along. After all that....don't get me wrong...All in all, the shoots were fun. I am hyped about training in the off-season and looking forward to next year, but is this how the majority of 3-gun shoots operate? What ruleset did the club use? Were these matches ran under IDPA Defensive Multigun rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I have been to matches where the home team always seemed to win, were in a distinct group from the others and understood the rules a little better than everyone else. It is not common, but unfortunately it happens. Two things to do about it: shoot somewhere else or get involved. Shooting somewhere else is not always a possibility, I understand. Sometimes the next closes matches is 2-4 hours away or always during the Saturday you have to be at the in-laws, etc. So, get involved in the group, express your concerns in club meetings, offer to post solid, extensive stage descriptions ahead of time. And emphasize rules, they're all out there and can't really be bent if you articulate them clearly. Good luck! You shoot? Who knew.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 In Albuquerque, the rules are pretty much like what you find at SMM3G or RM3G. We run a short course one day a month-80-90 yards with reduced targets. Another day we run a long course-out to 400 yards. Typically, all three guns are employed. No Chicken Shit rules exist in COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I'd have a problem with the lack of rules or changing the rules on the fly. Mandated shooting positions are fine with me as they are the only way to test certain skills without setting up elaborate stages that not all clubs have the time/resources for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadleyOwens Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Sounds like some local stuff I deal with as well...nothing is ever setup where you can "run and gun". There is no rhyme or reason to their stage layout...just whatever they feel benefits their particular skill set. I feel ya brother !! Also when you do start getting better and becoming a "threat" to their fragile ego that start sanctioning with stupid rules which do not follow any organized bodies book. H.-Owens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seod Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 What ruleset did the club use? Were these matches ran under IDPA Defensive Multigun rules? No specific rule set from what I have seen or read. It is just "Be safe. Don't break the 180 line." Or than that, you are at their mercy for rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 I'd find a new club or try and get them to affiliate with USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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