Turning around: when can start drawing the gun?

[ProGunGuy]

So i was at a match yesterday and they had a 180 turn around and draw stage. I saw a person start the draw as soon as the buzzer goes off. he turned fast enough to clear us before he started to extend but it was pretty close.

I always thought that it one had to be completely around before starting the draw.

Am I wrong?

[steel1212]

So i was at a match yesterday and they had a 180 turn around and draw stage. I saw a person start the draw as soon as the buzzer goes off. he turned fast enough to clear us before he started to extend but it was pretty close.

I always thought that it one had to be completely around before starting the draw.

Am I wrong?

Don't break the 180 with your muzzle. After that you can draw your gun when ever.

[lcs]

So i was at a match yesterday and they had a 180 turn around and draw stage. I saw a person start the draw as soon as the buzzer goes off. he turned fast enough to clear us before he started to extend but it was pretty close.

I always thought that it one had to be completely around before starting the draw.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong. Read the definition of "Draw". If you expose the trigger guard before being past the 180-----DQ.

[bbbean]

So i was at a match yesterday and they had a 180 turn around and draw stage. I saw a person start the draw as soon as the buzzer goes off. he turned fast enough to clear us before he started to extend but it was pretty close.

I always thought that it one had to be completely around before starting the draw.

Am I wrong?

Your muzzle can't break the 180. Beyond that, the timing is up to you. Personally, my hand goes on the gun as I begin to turn, and the gun begins to come out of the holster when I cross the 180. By the time I get turned all the way around, both hands are on the gun and I'm beginning to extend towards the target.

BB

[ProGunGuy]

So i was at a match yesterday and they had a 180 turn around and draw stage. I saw a person start the draw as soon as the buzzer goes off. he turned fast enough to clear us before he started to extend but it was pretty close.

I always thought that it one had to be completely around before starting the draw.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong. Read the definition of "Draw". If you expose the trigger guard before being past the 180-----DQ.

ok IC. So i am wrong in that one must be completely turned around before drawing, but correct in that what the shooter did was incorrect.

[lcs]

So i was at a match yesterday and they had a 180 turn around and draw stage. I saw a person start the draw as soon as the buzzer goes off. he turned fast enough to clear us before he started to extend but it was pretty close.

I always thought that it one had to be completely around before starting the draw.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong. Read the definition of "Draw". If you expose the trigger guard before being past the 180-----DQ.

ok IC. So i am wrong in that one must be completely turned around before drawing, but correct in that what the shooter did was incorrect.

I didn't see the shooter, but if the trigger guard was exposed before he/she was past the 180---DQ.

NOTE: Rule is 10.5.16

Edited August 20, 2012 by lcs

[lumpygravy]

I happened to shoot a match yesterday with two facing uprange starts.

On the first stage, after I had shot, a more experienced shooter, whom I respect greatly, took me aside and commented that I was really close to the 180 on my draw. I shoot limited and run my holster position in the old school appendix position. With this holster position, drawn early enough, it is very possible to break the 180. He assured me that I did not break the 180, but it sure made me focus intently on a safe draw for the next uprange start.

As others have stated, it's not a violation to draw prior to completing the turn, but at no time in the process may one break the 180.

[Flexmoney]

Read Larry's post(s) closely folks. This rule changed a number of years back. Used to be that you could "clear leather" as long as the muzzle was down. (I have a picture captured from a video of me doing just that at a major match...it is probably still posted around here some place.)

The newer version is that the gun/shooter needs to turn past the 180 with the gun before it clears the holster.

Official ruling:

Drawing a handgun while facing uprange

Created: 11/11/08

Updated: 11/18/08

Effective: 11/18/08

Rule Number: 10.5.16

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling Authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question:

The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Answer:

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

[sperman]

Being past the 180 is not hte same as being completely turned around.

[mikeg1005]

ok IC. So i am wrong in that one must be completely turned around before drawing, but correct in that what the shooter did was incorrect.

The trigger can not be exposed(handgun lifted from holster) until the line of the muzzle has cleared the 180* line(90* from the median intercept of the backstop). It doesn't matter where "you" are in propertion to the 180* line.. its based on where the pistol is.

What he did was incorrect. You see this A LOT at local matches, guys starting to lift out of their holster... RO's either don't watch it, or don't call it. Guy on my Area 5 squad got DQ'ed for this exact thing. RO watched the draw, and probably becuase no one else ever called him on it at a local match, he did everything the exact same and broke it.

MIke.

Edited August 20, 2012 by mikeg1005

[jester121]

The trigger can not be exposed(handgun lifted from holster) until the line of the muzzle has cleared the 180* line(90* from the median intercept of the backstop). It doesn't matter where "you" are in propertion to the 180* line.. its based on where the pistol is.

Except that's not precisely what the ruling said:

After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

It doesn't say "visible". It says "access is prohibited".

Maybe it's just me, but the wording in the ruling (like in so many other examples) seems so unnecessarily awkward, as if they weren't even trying to be clear in the clarification.

Does that mean "the competitor must not access the trigger", i.e. shove his finger in the hole?

Or "it must be inaccessible due to still being covered by the holster".

Why not "gun must remain fully holstered, with trigger covered, until blah blah blah".

[whitedog]

My understanding is gun has to pass the 90 degree mark before being pulled. Two cro at local match told me this when I first started, and after the RO course, and reading the rules often, I believe that to be true. I don't see a gray area here...am I missing something?

[mikeg1005]

The trigger can not be exposed(handgun lifted from holster) until the line of the muzzle has cleared the 180* line(90* from the median intercept of the backstop). It doesn't matter where "you" are in propertion to the 180* line.. its based on where the pistol is.

Except that's not precisely what the ruling said:

After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

It doesn't say "visible". It says "access is prohibited".

Maybe it's just me, but the wording in the ruling (like in so many other examples) seems so unnecessarily awkward, as if they weren't even trying to be clear in the clarification.

Does that mean "the competitor must not access the trigger", i.e. shove his finger in the hole?

Or "it must be inaccessible due to still being covered by the holster".

Why not "gun must remain fully holstered, with trigger covered, until blah blah blah".

In order to have access to the trigger it needs to be exposed, does it not? Exactly.

The rule is written exactly as you are describing it. The point of the rule is to prevent an uprange discharge. To prevent uprange discharges, the trigger must not be pulled. If the trigger is covered(access is prohibited) then you can't pull the trigger, so that means it must stay in the holster.

My understanding is gun has to pass the 90 degree mark before being pulled. Two cro at local match told me this when I first started, and after the RO course, and reading the rules often, I believe that to be true. I don't see a gray area here...am I missing something?

Muzzle... not gun. But you get the idea.

Mike.

Edited August 21, 2012 by mikeg1005

[Flexmoney]

My understanding is gun has to pass the 90 degree mark before being pulled. Two cro at local match told me this when I first started, and after the RO course, and reading the rules often, I believe that to be true. I don't see a gray area here...am I missing something?

Sounds right to me.

[Poppa Bear]

Draw . . . . . . . . . . . . .The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

10.5.16 Drawing a handgun while facing uprange.

You pull the gun out of the holster enough to expose any portion of the trigger guard (In the case of a holster that FULLY covers the trigger guard), or increase the exposure of the trigger guard (In the case of a speed holster that locks on to the trigger guard) and you have drawn the gun. Do that while the muzzle is still past the 180 and it is a DQ.

It can be a tough one to call with the speed that some people can turn. They are placing their hand on the grip, turning, and drawing in fractions of a second. This a call best made by the timer RO observing the guns magwell position relative to the body as the shooter is turning, or by the board RO by observing the top of the slide as the shooter is turning. The bodies position is not relevant to this discussion, it is the guns position as it comes out of the holster. As long as the slide is inside the 180, and the magwell outside the 180, the gun is down range.

[Skydiver]

The gray area shows up if you have the gun in your holster in the FBI cant. Assuming downrange is North, if the right handed shooter is only still facing west southwest when the trigger is exposed the muzzle is still pointing safely within the 180.

I have no problems issuing a DQ under 10.5.16 because the shooter has drawn their gun while facing uprange. On the other hand, if I hear during a match that somebody was DQ'd for a 180 break under 10.5.2 for that same situation, I would file a 3rd party appeal on that shooter's behalf if the shooter doesn't want to arb it himself.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Skydiver

[DyNo!]

When the RO can't see your gun.

[mactiger]

Draw . . . . . . . . . . . . .The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

10.5.16 Drawing a handgun while facing uprange.

You pull the gun out of the holster enough to expose any portion of the trigger guard (In the case of a holster that FULLY covers the trigger guard), or increase the exposure of the trigger guard (In the case of a speed holster that locks on to the trigger guard) and you have drawn the gun. Do that while the muzzle is still past the 180 and it is a DQ.

It can be a tough one to call with the speed that some people can turn. They are placing their hand on the grip, turning, and drawing in fractions of a second. This a call best made by the timer RO observing the guns magwell position relative to the body as the shooter is turning, or by the board RO by observing the top of the slide as the shooter is turning. The bodies position is not relevant to this discussion, it is the guns position as it comes out of the holster. As long as the slide is inside the 180, and the magwell outside the 180, the gun is down range.

This is the best answer here. Both RO's need to be watching the gun relative to the 180. Clear the holster enough to have access to the trigger before you are past the 180, and it's a DQ. Simple as that.

Troy