How Practical is PractiScore?

[Flexmoney]

This is an important point. The shooters don't get to see their scores on a per target basis. They then have to trust that the RO didn't fat finger the input. There really is limited review.

Just thinking out loud...

Perhaps, after the stage is scored, the scorekeeper could hand the clipboard with a score sheet on it to the RO and read off the totals for the RO to write down and the shooter to sign. That might help a little. It gives you a paper copy and makes sure that both the RO and the shooter know about any misses, no-shoots, etc.

That's the way we run 'em now....less the signature. But it wouldn't take much effort to do the signing part. I've had to rely on paper backups twice this year on one or two shooters. Usually the last shooter and they score-keep RO forgets to enter stage or exits scoring screen without saving.

Lost me there...?

GS...you said "clipboard" and then "write down". I'm not following the process you are suggesting? Sounds like paper scoring?

[Graham Smith]

GS...you said "clipboard" and then "write down". I'm not following the process you are suggesting? Sounds like paper scoring?

I can leave out a lot of things when I'm thinking out loud. This is something that has been discussed before to some degree.

My thought is that the scorekeeper would have the electronic scoring device plus a clipboard with paper scoresheets. The scoresheet could have nothing more than the time and totals for each stage on it.

When the scoring is complete, the scorekeeper could hand the clipboard with the paperscoresheet to the RO to write down the totals. This would serve as a check on the scores plus it would be a paper copy backup if the device barfed.

Actually, if we start doing this, I would continue to create the same full scoresheets we use now and just write in the totals. But if something happened to a device, the scorekeeper could switch to paper scoring without a problem. The whole idea is to make sure that, whatever happens, there is a way to end up with scores for everyone for every stage.

[JThompson]

Well, that's one of the things you get with PS. You no longer HAVE to total up the hits.

I know, but my point is, if it's a battle trying to get some scorekeepers to do something as basic as totaling up, or checking totals, how much more trouble will it be to get them to move to a new system completely. No offense to anyone here, but shooters can be a right lot of whiners sometimes.

I'm rather interested in hearing the downside stories just to have some idea as to what I could be letting myself in for if I try this next year. Has anyone tried and failed? Has anyone run into some major problems?

Overheat issues, if they are in a hot place with hardly any shade they will overheat and turn off. (Ipod) Also, if you use the battery pack with them you need to turn it on from the start and not wait until the battery is low on the pod. Charging created heat and the combo of charging and hot weather or direct sunlight can make it worse. Moisture, if you get rain or a very very humid day the can and will shut down for moisture. Adding last minute shooters, you need policy for squad changes and last minute entry as if you add them on the Ipad and then they do it on the pod you have reeentry and or scores being done on the same guy in two places. If the pod does not travel with the squad then every pod needs to be updated with the changed squad people or you have the guy that moved on the wrong squad and not on the right squad. No backup paper or way to print each shooter. If I have to write down all the hits at the end why not just d the damn scoresheet and be done with it.

And the biggest one of all, A lot of the CRO/RO do not like it and might even refuse to work for you at a major. Also, you can get a lot of passive aggressive resistance which can make everyone's day longer. The ROs feel that you are putting more work on them, or moving the work form the stats office to the ROs and they resent it. (Debate if ya want, but it's true)

There are many more little idios that can bite you in the ass too, suffice it to say that unless the battery issues, overheat, moisture and printing issues are dealt with, I would never use them at a major again. Hell, I didn't want to use it for this time, but was outvoted on it. That said, I did my best to make it work including some damned cool chests and two pods, keeping one in a cooler and swapping them out to make sure they didn't overheat.

There were a lot of little things that added up to a pain in the ass, many of them could have been avoided with better forethought on our part, but not having the experience with them beforehand is not the way to go. If you are going to use these for a big match you better damn sure use them for a BUNCH of smaller ones and get things running smooth and good policies in place to deal with it when things go sideways.

One must have is ample paper scoresheets for when something goes wrong, you need to have a way to keep the squads moving while your stats people figure out what's gone wrong. If you a have eleven stages, you should have a MIN of 16 devices.

If you want to hear more, call me and I will fill you in on the rest....

JT

Edited August 21, 2012 by JThompson

[bbbean]

And the biggest one of all, A lot of the CRO/RO do not like it and might even refuse to work for you at a major. Also, you can get a lot of passive aggressive resistance which can make everyone's day longer. The ROs feel that you are putting more work on them, or moving the work form the stats office to the ROs and they resent it. (Debate if ya want, but it's true)

This will change in time, as more CRO/ROs get experience using Practiscore.

BB

[sperman]

Another thing I didn't like about the match I shot that used Palms:

Giving the squad one sheet for all the shooters, and then requiring the shooters to cut them into little strips on their own.

To me, the paper backup is a real issue with electronic scoring. There has to be a better solution than what currently exists.

I know the next time I shoot a match with electronic scoring, I'll double check the hits on the device, and then the device against the paper before I sign anything. The RO who's in a hurry to pull up the next shooter will just have to wait.

Maybe I should start a new thread on paper backups with electronic scoring. I'm sure that wasn't where Graham intended this thread to go when he started it.

[mlmiller1]

What's your definition of affordable per device?

The google nexus 7 appears to be an excellent all-purpose android tablet at $199. Kindle Fire is the same price, though the GN7 just seems to feel better in the hands.

Apple MAY (really stress >>>MAY<<<) be coming out with what the rumor mills are calling an ipad mini, which would hopefully be less unwieldy than the existing ipad 2 and new ipad. Don't get me wrong: the ipad is the superior tablet on the market and makes a great master device in a PS match (to which all the other stage devices sync), but I wouldn't want to carry one around all day scoring a stage.

And then there are the Nook Simple Touches. You have to root them, but they're $80-$99 each and they get the job done. We're about to score the GA State Championships on them.

For a dedicated device that is only used for scoring & is at least half again as big of a screen as my phone, I expect I would pay something like $100 & say it is affordable. If those first two things you mentioned do anything else that I might find useful, I might be willing to pay $200 for them but if they are only for scoring matches, too much $$$.

The sound of a Nook Simple Touch is intriguing but "root them"????? What is that & who does it?

Do these devices need airtime or some subscription thing to make them "sync" ? What else would you have to buy if you buy a Nook Simple Touch? Extra battery pack? Some type of connectors to make the battery pack work? Covers? Carriers?

Thanks for taking the time Bill!

MLM

[Flexmoney]

GS...you said "clipboard" and then "write down". I'm not following the process you are suggesting? Sounds like paper scoring?

I can leave out a lot of things when I'm thinking out loud. This is something that has been discussed before to some degree.

My thought is that the scorekeeper would have the electronic scoring device plus a clipboard with paper scoresheets. The scoresheet could have nothing more than the time and totals for each stage on it.

When the scoring is complete, the scorekeeper could hand the clipboard with the paperscoresheet to the RO to write down the totals. This would serve as a check on the scores plus it would be a paper copy backup if the device barfed.

Actually, if we start doing this, I would continue to create the same full scoresheets we use now and just write in the totals. But if something happened to a device, the scorekeeper could switch to paper scoring without a problem. The whole idea is to make sure that, whatever happens, there is a way to end up with scores for everyone for every stage.

Oh, OK.

I should further clarify, as well. Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

[wgnoyes]

For a dedicated device that is only used for scoring & is at least half again as big of a screen as my phone, I expect I would pay something like $100 & say it is affordable. If those first two things you mentioned do anything else that I might find useful, I might be willing to pay $200 for them but if they are only for scoring matches, too much $$$.

The sound of a Nook Simple Touch is intriguing but "root them"????? What is that & who does it?

Do these devices need airtime or some subscription thing to make them "sync" ? What else would you have to buy if you buy a Nook Simple Touch? Extra battery pack? Some type of connectors to make the battery pack work? Covers? Carriers?

Well, to put things in perspective, the CED 7000Pro Timer, which lets you perform the functions of electronic scoring as well just being a shot timer, is $214, and all it is useful for is matches. So $199 for a Google Nexus 7 that is much more intuitive to use starts to look pretty good, plus you can use it for other things off the range.

As to the NST, one of these will run all day long and still show a 60% charge. Theoretically you could drive one through the duration of a major match, though there would be no reason not to recharge them at night when turned back in. No external battery pack needed.

Connectivity is wi-fi. You just need a portable wi-fi router or range-wide wi-fi coverage, and that does NOT involve any cellular service.

"Rooting" is the process where you take a Barnes & Noble NST, which is intended to be a dedicated e-reader, and.... "do" things to it by means of 3rd-party written code to get it to run as a "normal" android tablet, which must be accomplished before you can install apps like practiscore on it. It's a flakey process that never works the same on 2 or more devices, and it's not for the faint of heart. But once it is completed, you're ready to rock, and at $80-$99 per device, it's probably worth the extra effort to find someone you know who can perform the procedure. You don't need a case for the thing, you don't need a screen protector. Matter of fact, NST's won't run with a screen protector or anything else that covers the face of it, and you may think "oh that's horrible", but.... you pay more than $99 for a timer and we don't run around scrambling for cases for THEM!

Edited August 21, 2012 by wgnoyes

[euxx]

I should further clarify, as well. Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

This is not exactly true. If you sync or download match from practiscore web site, you can actually go to your own scoring page and see per-target hits.

If we'll have a timer device connected to scoring device (I am convinced that those two has to be separate), we can also record times for each individual shot and provide even more info for those who are interested... So, electronic scoring has bigger potential then any old-times system.

BTW, I wonder when electronic timers showed up, how much resistance they got from ROs who been using regular stop-watch to measure time.

[Xfactor]

Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

This was brought up at our last monthly match by George Jones (after seeing PractiScore for the first time)...

The review screen only shows totals, and really there's no reason why the individual targets couldn't be shown here as well. As an interim work around, you can just go back into the "Score Targets" screen, and show the shooter their individual hits.

[wgnoyes]

I should further clarify, as well. Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

This is not exactly true. If you sync or download match from practiscore web site, you can actually go to your own scoring page and see per-target hits.

...

Or if you're like the latest breed of competitors coming along who have their own android devices with practiscore on them, you can just grab a copy of the stage timer data without even asking (assuming wifi is available and they don't have it locked down) and get your own copy of what you shot.

[centermass]

I should further clarify, as well. Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

This is not exactly true. If you sync or download match from practiscore web site, you can actually go to your own scoring page and see per-target hits.

...

Or if you're like the latest breed of competitors coming along who have their own android devices with practiscore on them, you can just grab a copy of the stage timer data without even asking (assuming wifi is available and they don't have it locked down) and get your own copy of what you shot.

Leaving the wifi open to shooters to upload the data seems very risky, there is no way to keep shooters from changing scores. If they can sync to get the scores, they can sync again once stuff has been "edited".

I'd hope "shooter's code" would apply, but it's gonna happen if the wifi is not protected.

[cellguy030]

The system is sch that you cannot push scores to another device only choose which to pull from...still there is the possibility of errors.therefore our system remains closed

[wgnoyes]

...Leaving the wifi open to shooters to upload the data seems very risky, there is no way to keep shooters from changing scores. If they can sync to get the scores, they can sync again once stuff has been "edited".

...

As already said, not correct and you declare ahead of time that if someone walks up with their stage performance on their device and it's different than what is on an official match device, the match device is considered authoritative.

We don't print out individual hits on individual targets now in a paper match; we just print combined stage results and competitors compare to see if their hit factors are correct. I mean, think about it. You as the competitor follow the RO around as he scores targets and someone else is writing it all down. Do you REALLY remember which target had what on it on a 32 round long course when you get the scoresheet presented to you for your signature? All you're looking at is the totals of the hits, the time, any penalties. The only value the paper scoresheet has to you now as far as seeing EVERYTHING is that it all has to be keyed in after the fact, and the possibility of error exists then, but you'll never refer to it unless the calculated HF doesn't match what you think it should be. In a PS match, it's all scored right there, sure I can show you the individual hits on the screen, but it's more than sufficient to give you a summary sheet of hits, penalties, time, etc, because that's all you're using to check your scores during the 1 hr bitch & gripe.

But the problem you could have at something the size of the nationals is a range-wide wifi network that has 300+ devices glommed onto it and the RO's and Stats are wading through the list to find official match devices! (Yes, there's a way to do that, too.) So for the sake of performance, should probably be left closed. Unless you had a router on the stage with an ssid of "stage1" (2, 3, ...) and people could pick up their stage-specific scores that way. That could work.

[Skydiver]

Yup, the syncing is a pull model. Somebody will have to do some good social engineering (or sabotage) to convince the somebody holding on to a "official" device to pull scores from a lurker device. When we ran into our cross platform synching issue a month ago where the droids with half the match and the iOS's with the other half of the match, I broke down on the discipline of only synching from known "official" devices. I was willing to sync from any device that was going to give me a complete set of scores.

Fortunately, Ken and Josh fixed some of the illusive cross platform synching problems. The other problems they still couldn't reproduce, so this is leading my club to commit to an all Android or all iOS purchase decision. The NST didn't pass the local users test because of slow UI after folks got used to the speed of their Android and iOS phones, as well as rain/moisture issues.

I think the other issue that exist is trying to prevent tampering of scores after shooters have "signed" the scoresheet. I think I saw a flash of the feature available on the iOS devices, but digging through my Android, I'm not seeing the feature.

[jcwren]

But the problem you could have at something the size of the nationals is a range-wide wifi network that has 300+ devices glommed onto it and the RO's and Stats are wading through the list to find official match devices! (Yes, there's a way to do that, too.) So for the sake of performance, should probably be left closed. Unless you had a router on the stage with an ssid of "stage1" (2, 3, ...) and people could pick up their stage-specific scores that way. That could work.

I think how we're going to address this at GA State is to create two SSIDs, one of which is open, and the other which is secured. All match devices will be on the secured SSID. Periodically (maybe every half hour), we'll sync a device against the master that's been accumulating scores, and move it to the open network, with a device name like 'Sync From Me!'. That'll prevent the issue of device clutter when syncing against the stage devices.

The only real potential problem I see is one of collusion between a competitor and a stage official (which, I'd like to believe, isn't ever going to happen). In that scenario, the immoral competitor would sync against the stage device, alter scores, and then have the immoral stage official sync against their device.

Ultimately, PS is going to need some sort of implementation of several permission options. These would include the ability to disable stage editing, competitor modification, syncing TO another device, etc. Once a match is in progress, this would prevent accidental or deliberate changes to areas that a "regular" scorekeeper shouldn't be in.

[jcwren]

Fortunately, Ken and Josh fixed some of the illusive cross platform synching problems. The other problems they still couldn't reproduce, so this is leading my club to commit to an all Android or all iOS purchase decision. The NST didn't pass the local users test because of slow UI after folks got used to the speed of their Android and iOS phones, as well as rain/moisture issues.

I'm pretty familiar with most of the problems, but this one isn't setting any bits. Er, I mean, ringing any bells. Which are you talking about?

[Skydiver]

Fortunately, Ken and Josh fixed some of the illusive cross platform synching problems. The other problems they still couldn't reproduce, so this is leading my club to commit to an all Android or all iOS purchase decision. The NST didn't pass the local users test because of slow UI after folks got used to the speed of their Android and iOS phones, as well as rain/moisture issues.

I'm pretty familiar with most of the problems, but this one isn't setting any bits. Er, I mean, ringing any bells. Which are you talking about?

illusive --> elusive.

At the beginning of the match, we had a master Droid that slave Droids and iOSes sync from to get the stage, registration, and squadding information from. Through out the day, as people walked near the stats shack and I or another person was available, we had the master sync from the slave device, and let the slave sync from the master. At the very end of the day, as the squads were coming to report in with their final scores, we found that the master Droid couldn't sync from any of the iOSes. No error message, just a long wait and then back to the sync screen. Not even the screen that reports no new scores having been read. As a counter check, we made the master sync from a slave Droid, and that would do the normal syncing behavior. As we did more and more testing, we found that all the Droids could sync from each other, and all the iOSes could sync from each other. But we couldn't sync across the two operating systems. Even stranger was that earlier in the day, the syncing was working as the squads came by. I even threw in my Android phone which had not participated in any of the earlier syncing and tried to sync from a couple of iPhones and an iPad with no avail. My phone successfully pulled from the master. We'd also been holding back an iPhone as a backup. When that was turned on, it couldn't sync from the Master, but it could sync from the other iOSes.

The ultimate workaround was that I got the computer with EzWinScore and the Practiscore Exporter to get data from the master droid, and then from one of the slave iOSes.

After reporting the issue to Ken and Josh, they couldn't reproduce the problem unfortunately.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Skydiver

[Graham Smith]

I should further clarify, as well. Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

That is part and parcel of my basic question. We have a paper system now that people are used to and in going to an electronic system, it will need to be at least as functional as the paper system. In this regard, it is. The scores for any stage can be recorded at any point.

In fact, one of the things I want to look into is whether it is possible to download the complete scores for every target. Not sure what I would do with it, but if it's stored on the device then I want to be able to get it.

This brings me back to the original topic - is this a PRACTICAL replacement for paper? Are there things we are used to doing that become more difficult? Are there problems that can make this system harder for inexperienced people to use than a pen and paper.

[bbbean]

This brings me back to the original topic - is this a PRACTICAL replacement for paper? Are there things we are used to doing that become more difficult? Are there problems that can make this system harder for inexperienced people to use than a pen and paper.

With one notable exception the MDs who've used Practiscore swear by it and say it saves time and trouble. But rather than rely on conjecture, why not download the free app to one of your devices and play with it a while? Use it with paper backups for a match or two. All it'll cost you is a little time to try it.

I see a lot of conjecture about possible problems from people who haven't used it the program or who haven't used it long enough to get comfortable with it, but not that many complaints from people who've used it for 2 or 3 matches. Give it a try.

[Graham Smith]

But rather than rely on conjecture, why not download the free app to one of your devices and play with it a while?

I've been doing that. But bear in mind that I've worked with computers of one sort or another since 1972 so I'm not easily intimidated by new technology. I am definitely not a good test subject. And we had hoped to give this a try for one or two squads this month but I simply have not had the time to devote to working out the details.

[Chris iliff]

Those "details" are exactly why I think most clubs won't do it. I'd like to be wrong and could be for all I know.

This is why I think if it WAS the cats meow someone would be setting up shop, rooting Nooks, and selling clubs packages ready to go.

Or, getting into business with a company to use their product for just this, like buying "blanks" right off the assembly line or something and setting them up for just our purpose.

IMHO.

[Skydiver]

I should further clarify, as well. Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

That is part and parcel of my basic question. We have a paper system now that people are used to and in going to an electronic system, it will need to be at least as functional as the paper system. In this regard, it is. The scores for any stage can be recorded at any point.

In fact, one of the things I want to look into is whether it is possible to download the complete scores for every target. Not sure what I would do with it, but if it's stored on the device then I want to be able to get it.

This brings me back to the original topic - is this a PRACTICAL replacement for paper? Are there things we are used to doing that become more difficult? Are there problems that can make this system harder for inexperienced people to use than a pen and paper.

For the run of the mill stuff, it's a good enough replacement for paper, and it makes stats infinitely easier. I'm happy for it!

Other than the paper backup and shooter verification of correctness issues discussed above, I still see the following issues from making the leap to electronic complete:

1. No easy way to find missing scoresheets and therefore determine if a stage can be torn down. It gets even more interesting when there is a DQ.

2. No place to record a DQ. Yes, you can mark a shooter as having been DQ'd, but we are breaking the rule:

10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the incident, on the competitor’s score sheet, and the Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

3. No place to record the reasons for procedurals. Yes, you can mark procedurals, and some RO's don't both with the rule:

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.

4. Related to #3. No place to record extra shots, extra hits penalties. Everything gets lumped as "additional penalties". EzWinScore wants these as separate fields if you are doing manual input.

[Flexmoney]

I should further clarify, as well. Totals only tell part of the story. I really want to see the hits recorded on each target. I don't get to see those on electronic scoring.

This is not exactly true. If you sync or download match from practiscore web site, you can actually go to your own scoring page and see per-target hits.

If we'll have a timer device connected to scoring device (I am convinced that those two has to be separate), we can also record times for each individual shot and provide even more info for those who are interested... So, electronic scoring has bigger potential then any old-times system.

BTW, I wonder when electronic timers showed up, how much resistance they got from ROs who been using regular stop-watch to measure time.

Hard to do before I sign my score sheet.

[Ken D]

I think it would help alleviate a lot of the issues you are talking about. It is harder to screw up the scoring and there is no need to total.

Hi Rob... That was my hope earlier this year, but after seeing some of the stuff I've seen this year doing scores... It just makes me wonder... Of course, as you know, it has not been my best year to date...

Have you guys talked about using them at Eastern Shore?

We are working on it. In talking with some folks at the Area 8 match, we were under the impression that we could use a Kindle Touch. Didn't quite work out. So now we're getting a Nook and we'll go from there.