Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

How Practical is PractiScore?


Graham Smith

Recommended Posts

Well, that's one of the things you get with PS. You no longer HAVE to total up the hits.

I know, but my point is, if it's a battle trying to get some scorekeepers to do something as basic as totaling up, or checking totals, how much more trouble will it be to get them to move to a new system completely. No offense to anyone here, but shooters can be a right lot of whiners sometimes.

I'm rather interested in hearing the downside stories just to have some idea as to what I could be letting myself in for if I try this next year. Has anyone tried and failed? Has anyone run into some major problems?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 101
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Well, that's one of the things you get with PS. You no longer HAVE to total up the hits.

I know, but my point is, if it's a battle trying to get some scorekeepers to do something as basic as totaling up, or checking totals, how much more trouble will it be to get them to move to a new system completely....

None, really. They find at cherokee gun club that rookies they train to run the tablet (takes about 2 to 3 minutes) are fascinated by it, so that makes them inherently motivated to learn, and they appreciate the reliability and lack of hassle involved. hell, it takes longer than that to teach someone new how to fill out a paper scoresheet!

Edited by wgnoyes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My only problem with any of the electronic scoring systems is the lack of an ACCURATE paper backup.

I shot an Area match recently that used electronic scoring. It is my understanding that they've used electronic scoring for years. Some stages we were told to initial the paper sheet, other stages we were told to initial the palms, at least one stage had us do both, and I think there might have been a stage that didn't have us initial anything.

I saw one RO incorrectly write down the score on the paper copy.

The MD sent an e-mail saying the electronic scores were the official scores. If there was a discrepancy between the electronic scores and the paper scores, the electronic scores would be used. What is the point in giving me a paper copy if it can't be used to dispute an improperly entered score?

I am a big fan of electroinc scoring, and think all matches should move in this direction. However, I think the competitor needs to be given a copy of his scores that comes directly from the device. A handwritten copy of what is displayed on the device is just another opportunity for error.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Practiscore will become widely (or universially) used until one of the companies that make shot timers and/or chronographs markets a touch screen device pre-configured to run it, at a cost near that of a timer, and that USPSA gives its official approval of the device/software package. I-phones are expensive, have small screens, and have battery issues. You are paying for a lot of smartphone features that you aren't using for Practiscore. The NST's have to be rooted to work by someone who knows what they are doing, and may have dust and water issues. Even then, smaller clubs will stick to paper for a long time due to cost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've been using Practiscore since March, and absolutely would not go back to paper. Scoring is easier, the number of errors per match is dramatically reduced, results are available immediately after the match, and the MD/stats guy can review results and post to the web in less time than it takes Buffalo Wild Wings to bring an order of traditional wings with wild sauce.

There is a very slight learning curve on the front end, but frankly, many users never get past the learning curve on paper. If you make an error in Practiscore, it is immediately apparent and can be fixed while shooter, and RO are still standing on stage. Errors on paper frequently don't get discovered until hours after the match when no target is available for review, no RO is available for review, and no shooter is available to confirm.

Granted, if accuracy, convenience, and quick results aren't priorities for your club, then Practiscore can't keep up with paper. But I can't think of a reason in the world it shouldn't be the de facto standard for match scoring.

BB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

we have to remind people that "Hey, just because we've gone to Practiscore doesn't mean these targets are going to paste themselves!".

I'm hoping that will be a feature in the next version.

BB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Practiscore will become widely (or universially) used until one of the companies that make shot timers and/or chronographs markets a touch screen device pre-configured to run it, at a cost near that of a timer

Even better to integrate WITH the timer. Hit the buzzer, click shooting complete (which saves the time), enter the scores, click scoring complete, run the next shooter. No need for a separate device or person....

-rvb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At Maine Practical Shooters we've been using the Palm system the past couple years and will be using Practiscore for the first time Saturday with borrowed iPhones and an iPad - it was easy setting up the match and it looks like registration will be much easier.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If your club on the fence about Practiscore, and with in a reasonable driving distance from central Iowa feel free to contact me.

My stats guy and I will be happy to come to your match setup the wifi network and teach your staff to use Practiscore. Currently we can supply 12 squads with devices, with backups in case of problems.

The program is so easy to use that I am confident we can have your staff up and running in the time it takes to build the stages.

Scott Arnburg

Iowa Section Coordinator

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My only problem with any of the electronic scoring systems is the lack of an ACCURATE paper backup.

I shot an Area match recently that used electronic scoring. It is my understanding that they've used electronic scoring for years. Some stages we were told to initial the paper sheet, other stages we were told to initial the palms, at least one stage had us do both, and I think there might have been a stage that didn't have us initial anything.

I saw one RO incorrectly write down the score on the paper copy.

The MD sent an e-mail saying the electronic scores were the official scores. If there was a discrepancy between the electronic scores and the paper scores, the electronic scores would be used. What is the point in giving me a paper copy if it can't be used to dispute an improperly entered score?

I am a big fan of electroinc scoring, and think all matches should move in this direction. However, I think the competitor needs to be given a copy of his scores that comes directly from the device. A handwritten copy of what is displayed on the device is just another opportunity for error.

The point of the paper copy was they were complying with:

9.11.2 When electronic scoring is used, once stage scoring is completed, every competitor shall be provided the opportunity to review the PDA or handheld computer display to review their stage time and score entries. At Level II or higher matches, range officers shall also create a hard copy record that includes the hit and penalty totals, time, time of day, competitor initials and range officer initials for each stage.

If the number was written incorrectly, an appeal should have been made because:

9.8.1 Each competitor is responsible to maintain an accurate record of their scores to verify the lists posted by the Stats Officer.

and

9.8.3 If a competitor detects an error in the provisional results at the end of the match, they must file an appeal with the Stats Officer not later than 1 hour after the results are posted. If the appeal is not filed within the time limit, the posted scores will stand and the appeal will be dismissed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We went back to paper this weekend after the past few months of electronic scoring. I got the impression that people would have rather had the electronic scoring, specially for our two stages that had 48 and 50 rounds each. With over 60 shooters, 9 stages, and a stage with 2 strings, I know I would have really appreciated electronic scoring. At my club, the general consensus is that it's time to commit to buy some club owned devices and go electronic all the way for the future.

Ken and Josh have been really responsive with issues we find. I think Josh tried to move mountains this Friday/Saturday when he didn't have internet access to try to get us a quick fix for a cross platform issue that we discovered at another club's evening match. Unfortunately, we'd already printed out the scoresheets by the time we got Josh's email that the fix had been published.

Looking forward to moving to electronic all the way!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, since no one has put up any suggestions on my original subtle post, let me be more direct & ask what can be done for those of us that need reading glasses to see the little bitty writing & numbers on the small phone size screen? Is there something durable, affordable, & with a big screen? I am technologically a cave man so don't suggest something using a slang term, please. Correct term, brand, model even would be nice, if there is such a thing. What do you have to do to this non telephone electronic gadget to make it work with practiscore? Our club is using PS on phones but I can't help score since I can't see the screen.

I really don't want to have to try to keep up with reading glasses either while I'm shooting just so I can see to score. To put them on I have to remove my electronic muffs, raise my shooting glasses, find my reading glasses, put them on, & then try to start scoring. Can you see a SLOW problem here? I'm pretty sure there are lots of us cavemen around that do plenty of work helping with matches that are in the same boat I am in. I've got nothing against the PS method, just need baby steps(with a big screen). I know PS is easier, after scoring handwritten scores on wrinkled paper with all the other downsides for our matches for several years, I just need suggestions to get me going the right way.

Anyone?

MLM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's your definition of affordable per device?

The google nexus 7 appears to be an excellent all-purpose android tablet at $199. Kindle Fire is the same price, though the GN7 just seems to feel better in the hands.

Apple MAY (really stress >>>MAY<<<) be coming out with what the rumor mills are calling an ipad mini, which would hopefully be less unwieldy than the existing ipad 2 and new ipad. Don't get me wrong: the ipad is the superior tablet on the market and makes a great master device in a PS match (to which all the other stage devices sync), but I wouldn't want to carry one around all day scoring a stage.

And then there are the Nook Simple Touches. You have to root them, but they're $80-$99 each and they get the job done. We're about to score the GA State Championships on them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My stats guy and I will be happy to come to your match setup the wifi network and teach your staff to use Practiscore.

The key word there is STAFF. We don't really have a staff. Our staff is mainly comprised of whoever shows up to shoot. And that's part of what concerns me.

It seems to me that for this to work, there has to be at least one person who will be in charge of scoring. Well, for a lot of Level I clubs, there is only one person - the MD - who is in charge of everything. They'll have some folks that will show up to help on match day but ultimately the MD does almost everything. Sure, the electronic scoring will help when it comes time to compile the scores, but you still have to deal with getting all the registration and squadding into the devices and then all the training and handholding needed get people using them properly - and not having a Flobot type accident if they don't like them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it would help alleviate a lot of the issues you are talking about. It is harder to screw up the scoring and there is no need to total.

Hi Rob... That was my hope earlier this year, but after seeing some of the stuff I've seen this year doing scores... It just makes me wonder... Of course, as you know, it has not been my best year to date...

Have you guys talked about using them at Eastern Shore?

Yes, Kenny is ready to do something so he doesn't have to spend so much time after the match. We talked about Palms first, but I think it's going to be nooks and practiscore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, Kenny is ready to do something so he doesn't have to spend so much time after the match. We talked about Palms first, but I think it's going to be nooks and practiscore.

Have him give me a call. Maybe we can double team this and come up with something that will work for both clubs. Cross training people would benefit us all. I've already got a couple NST's that I've been experimenting with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My stats guy and I will be happy to come to your match setup the wifi network and teach your staff to use Practiscore.

The key word there is STAFF. We don't really have a staff. Our staff is mainly comprised of whoever shows up to shoot. And that's part of what concerns me.

It seems to me that for this to work, there has to be at least one person who will be in charge of scoring. Well, for a lot of Level I clubs, there is only one person - the MD - who is in charge of everything. They'll have some folks that will show up to help on match day but ultimately the MD does almost everything. Sure, the electronic scoring will help when it comes time to compile the scores, but you still have to deal with getting all the registration and squadding into the devices and then all the training and handholding needed get people using them properly - and not having a Flobot type accident if they don't like them.

Take it from a level I combo MD/RO/Shooter/Stats/Web guy - Practiscore makes my life 100% easier on match day than scoring with paper.

The first time we used Practiscore, I did registration myself (on the iPhone at the range) and spent 5 minutes showing the most tech savvy person in each squad how to use Practiscore. Added 20 minutes to my prematch routine, but eliminated 2 hours from my post match routine. The second time we used Practiscore, I asked the previous Practiscore users to show someone else how to use Practiscore. By the third match, I had shooters showing up with Practiscore loaded on their own phones and volunteering to score. At this point, each squad has 4 or 5 people who have run the device, and we could make that more if we needed to. I asked another RO to take over registration and squadding, which still takes approximately 15 minutes before the match (approximately the same amount of time it took to get everyone on paper and handle squadding manually, and less time than it used to take me to match scoresheets to EZWS registration)). That's a pretty justifiable tradeoff for all the time it saves later in the day, increased accuracy, and the ability to let people know how they've done within minutes of the end of the match.

BB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, Kenny is ready to do something so he doesn't have to spend so much time after the match. We talked about Palms first, but I think it's going to be nooks and practiscore.

Have him give me a call. Maybe we can double team this and come up with something that will work for both clubs. Cross training people would benefit us all. I've already got a couple NST's that I've been experimenting with.

Sure thing. We are shooting this Sat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I hear of at practiscore matches is competitors have their own devices and are constantly grabbing scores from the stage tablets. if they can do that, then they can be pressed into service to actually operate one on the stage in lieu of the clipboard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My only problem with any of the electronic scoring systems is the lack of an ACCURATE paper backup.

I shot an Area match recently that used electronic scoring. It is my understanding that they've used electronic scoring for years. Some stages we were told to initial the paper sheet, other stages we were told to initial the palms, at least one stage had us do both, and I think there might have been a stage that didn't have us initial anything.

I saw one RO incorrectly write down the score on the paper copy.

The MD sent an e-mail saying the electronic scores were the official scores. If there was a discrepancy between the electronic scores and the paper scores, the electronic scores would be used. What is the point in giving me a paper copy if it can't be used to dispute an improperly entered score?

I am a big fan of electroinc scoring, and think all matches should move in this direction. However, I think the competitor needs to be given a copy of his scores that comes directly from the device. A handwritten copy of what is displayed on the device is just another opportunity for error.

This is an important point. The shooters don't get to see their scores on a per target basis. They then have to trust that the RO didn't fat finger the input. There really is limited review.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, since no one has put up any suggestions on my original subtle post, let me be more direct & ask what can be done for those of us that need reading glasses to see the little bitty writing & numbers on the small phone size screen? Is there something durable, affordable, & with a big screen? I am technologically a cave man so don't suggest something using a slang term, please. Correct term, brand, model even would be nice, if there is such a thing. What do you have to do to this non telephone electronic gadget to make it work with practiscore? Our club is using PS on phones but I can't help score since I can't see the screen.

I really don't want to have to try to keep up with reading glasses either while I'm shooting just so I can see to score. To put them on I have to remove my electronic muffs, raise my shooting glasses, find my reading glasses, put them on, & then try to start scoring. Can you see a SLOW problem here? I'm pretty sure there are lots of us cavemen around that do plenty of work helping with matches that are in the same boat I am in. I've got nothing against the PS method, just need baby steps(with a big screen). I know PS is easier, after scoring handwritten scores on wrinkled paper with all the other downsides for our matches for several years, I just need suggestions to get me going the right way.

Anyone?

MLM

I have purchased several IPAD 1's for sub $200 on Craigs list. Combine this with a otter box and you have a large screen that is fairly easy to see. My Ipads have survived my 4 & 6 year old and a shooting season with no problems.

Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an important point. The shooters don't get to see their scores on a per target basis. They then have to trust that the RO didn't fat finger the input. There really is limited review.

Just thinking out loud...

Perhaps, after the stage is scored, the scorekeeper could hand the clipboard with a score sheet on it to the RO and read off the totals for the RO to write down and the shooter to sign. That might help a little. It gives you a paper copy and makes sure that both the RO and the shooter know about any misses, no-shoots, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an important point. The shooters don't get to see their scores on a per target basis. They then have to trust that the RO didn't fat finger the input. There really is limited review.

Just thinking out loud...

Perhaps, after the stage is scored, the scorekeeper could hand the clipboard with a score sheet on it to the RO and read off the totals for the RO to write down and the shooter to sign. That might help a little. It gives you a paper copy and makes sure that both the RO and the shooter know about any misses, no-shoots, etc.

That's the way we run 'em now....less the signature. But it wouldn't take much effort to do the signing part. I've had to rely on paper backups twice this year on one or two shooters. Usually the last shooter and they score-keep RO forgets to enter stage or exits scoring screen without saving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an important point. The shooters don't get to see their scores on a per target basis. They then have to trust that the RO didn't fat finger the input. There really is limited review.

Just thinking out loud...

Perhaps, after the stage is scored, the scorekeeper could hand the clipboard with a score sheet on it to the RO and read off the totals for the RO to write down and the shooter to sign. That might help a little. It gives you a paper copy and makes sure that both the RO and the shooter know about any misses, no-shoots, etc.

That's the way we run 'em now....less the signature. But it wouldn't take much effort to do the signing part. I've had to rely on paper backups twice this year on one or two shooters. Usually the last shooter and they score-keep RO forgets to enter stage or exits scoring screen without saving.

this is why i like the IOS version... there is no possiblity of not saving.. it just does it. also we have been able to buy gen2 ipod touches from craigslist for 80-90 bucks all summer. i found a place that refurbs phones and stuff and have a deal with them for that price as many as they can get their hands on if anyone is interested pm me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...