Graham Smith Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 At level I matches, at least those I have run or participated in, scoring is often done by somewhat inexperienced people. Even for experienced shooters, scoring can be a bit fast moving and complicated. At yesterdays match, I had some problems with jams on the first stage and just put my gear away and picked up the scoresheet. It occurred to me that this was a good opportunity to think about scoring in terms of doing it with a handheld unit. What immediately became apparent to me was that, based on my experience testing out PractiScore on a Nook ST, I was pretty certain that I could not score as fast with it as I could by hand. Certainly I could not make corrections as fast. Now, I don't want to cast any aspersions onto other shooters, but I've seen far too many scoresheets with errors and missing totals and the like that I have a pretty good idea what would happen if we tried to get people to use electronic pads. First, there would be an increase in errors that are not caught because people don't review their scores. And if there were paper scoresheets available, then fully half the scores end up on them instead. IOW, trying to get people to actually do something like this would only work if it was easier for them or if they were forced to. And trying to force people will just end up creating more problems than it solves. So, while I am sure that there are clubs that have made this work, I rather suspect that they are the exception rather than the rule. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cellguy030 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 My club has been using this all year long and we have had nothing but good experiences with it. all the participants love it and most of us can score faster with it than before. we have had such good luck with it that we used it yesterday to score the Iowa State Ruger Rimfire Championship match. we had 120 total entrants and many of the volunteer score keepers were new to the system... everything went amazingly well with no real hickups to speak of. the IOS version really is pretty simple. I have not heard of anyone who has had a bad experience with the system. Also the first week we used it we sent Ken at PS an email at about 10pm and got an instant response to our learning question. they have been great to work with. I also got the chance to work with the palm based system at A3 this year and I found it pretty simple to use. I dont feel like we forced anything on anyone... just moving the sport into the new age and, like i said, everyone at our club loves it. Id be happy to be a resource for anyone thinking about using PS or who has questions... feel free to contact me anytime! Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I agree. I was the primary score keeper for my squad at a Level I a few weeks ago. The club just setup Practiscore for the first time, so it was new to everyone. They used iPod Touches. After the first stage, I was able to score a lot faster than I ever could with paper. Any mistakes were much more easily fixed than scribbling all over a paper score sheet and hoping the stats person could figure the chicken scratch out. After every stage, I showed the shooter their Review Screen so they could verify time and penalties. I've been trying to get my local range to use Practiscore also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 We used palm scoring before Practiscore came out so transition from palms to Nooks was pretty easy. As a Stats person for the local matches, the handheld scoring is a lot more efficient and it corrects/alleviates a lot of errors which were not caught on paper...i.e. missing times, missing steel, etc. We do run paper backup and I have had two matches where the backups came in very handy. Seems like some scorekeepers will exit the scoring screen and force exit instead of saving...backups were used to re-create the scores with no scoresheet missing. I'll continue to use Practiscore on Nook Simple Touches and its a lot faster than the very slow palms. I'd rather spend 10 minutes after the match verifying and calculating scores than the 2-3 hours when entering paper scores into EZWinscore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Everytime Ive seen it used, it was on a small screen like my phone. I have trouble seeing, reading w/out my glasses plus my shooting glasses have to be pulled up, too. Neither of which is convenient for me during a match. If it was on a bigger screen with no glare problems, I might be able to use it. Most cases it seeems to work ok for those that can see it. Nice to have instant scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I forgot to mention that when using iPods, to get them to last an entire match, you need to turn the screen brightness nearly all the way down. The battery won't last three stages otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cellguy030 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I forgot to mention that when using iPods, to get them to last an entire match, you need to turn the screen brightness nearly all the way down. The battery won't last three stages otherwise. This is true... we have battery backup cases for all our ipods, they run off 2 AA batteries and cost about $12 apiece i think. for the large match yesterday i had all the ipods running off the 2AAs and once they were drained they started using the internal battery.. then we would just change out the 2AAs... rinse, lather, repeat. got a pack of 48 AAs from Mendards for like $11 and still have over half of them from running 10 ipods for 7 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too_Slow Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 That is one of the good things about the NST's. Even after running for 5 hours straight for a match the battery in them is only down to 80% so they could actually go a couple of matches before needing to be charged (I do however charge them between matches anyway). Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Practiscore is a bit slow, but it would be entirely practical if: 1. It was running on a device that is durable enough to withstand the environment in which we shoot matches. An Ipod is NOT made for this sort of situation. Ideally it would have a battery that fit this requirement as well; and 2. It incorporated a printer that fit the criteria in #1 and thus did not necessitate writing down the scores. For a local match, it's fine, because very few people actually care about the formality of a carbon-copied score sheet, time of day, initialing, etc. At a major match, having electronics that are not made for a rugged, outdoor environment and having 150+ shooters per day, it is just not practical. Electronic scoring is limited only by the devices that power it as this point. The software has a few quirks, but overall, it is excellent for the "price." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 There is a learning curve, but Practiscore is a great development. Nobody will be scoring on paper in a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Just like with any other change, the only people who are going to have trouble are the people who resist it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 The MGM Ironman, the most grueling 3 gun in the country, used Practiscore this year. I don't know if they used ipads or nooks, but everyone in match management said it worked perfectly. Blue Ridge Mountain 3 Gun will also be using it in October to run 250+ shooters over 3 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Using Practiscore, at BGSL, you have your score well before you get home. Hell, before you leave the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 There is a learning curve,... And that is the major thing that concerns me. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's a battle sometimes to even get the person keeping the score to total up the scores. I really don't think that a lot of people (at our match) care that much about scores. A significant number don't bother to check their scores at all. As long as they can shoot, then they are happy. I really seriously question what it is going to take to get some people to give a rat's butt about being bothered with an electronic score pad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Graham, with all due respect, I believe that most shooters care about the their scores, some just care a WHOLE LOT more. Yes there are some people that don't care at all, but they are in the minority. As for electronic scoring, be it Palm or PractiScore, you simply touch a box for each hit, tap in the time from a number pad and hit save. No totals, not forgotten times, no too many or too few hits. The Stats person has the additional chore of loading the shooters in, but is relieved of the much more time consuming chore of entering all the scores and of having to guess at what a number is and worse, having to zero a shooter for no time or add in 5 NPMs for steel not being marked. Electonic scoring is the wave of the future and very few shooters resist it if given the proper introduction. My opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Graham, with all due respect, I believe that most shooters care about the their scores, some just care a WHOLE LOT more. I think my judgment is somewhat biased in the reverse because of some of the stuff I see every month. I don't know who yet, but when I was checking score sheets from the Saturday match, I found what has to be an entire squad with not a single stage totaled and no initials on anything. So, either no one checked their scores or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarnburg Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 There is a learning curve,... And that is the major thing that concerns me. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's a battle sometimes to even get the person keeping the score to total up the scores. I really don't think that a lot of people (at our match) care that much about scores. A significant number don't bother to check their scores at all. As long as they can shoot, then they are happy. I really seriously question what it is going to take to get some people to give a rat's butt about being bothered with an electronic score pad. Competitors not caring about scores is a completely different issue and has nothing to do with Practiscore. Our club has been using Practiscore for several months for both USPSA and Steel matches. I can (and have) taught someone one how to use the device to enter scores in 10 minutes or less. The program is VERY user friendly IF the person wants to learn. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziebart Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I care about my scores, but I also trust the scorekeeper did their job. Yes it has bit me in the past, I've had score sheets with no times and no steel marked before. Im sure the stats person hates when people don't total the hits, but I know they hate it more when they total them wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I have it on my iPhone and have goofed around with it. As of yet, I have no match experience with practiscore. I do welcome the chance. I would think USPSA/or someone, would move towards a standard device. I would love to see some type of scoring pad electronic device that could be used across disciplines and was weather proof. Somewhere under $100. That may be pie in the sky though. Something I could just buy and use, dedicated to this function Right now it seems as if the effort is positive, but the switch is cumbersome. If it was great, someone would set up a shop and put them out ready to go. Unless your club has a tech genie, it isn't something most clubs will consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftridge Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I think it would help alleviate a lot of the issues you are talking about. It is harder to screw up the scoring and there is no need to total. I have ran palms (they are a bit slow) at level 1,2, and 3 and I would say I can score just as fast and everyone can read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xfactor Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 ...As for electronic scoring, be it Palm or PractiScore, you simply touch a box for each hit, tap in the time from a number pad and hit save. No totals, not forgotten times, no too many or too few hits. The Stats person has the additional chore of loading the shooters in, but is relieved of the much more time consuming chore of entering all the scores and of having to guess at what a number is and worse, having to zero a shooter for no time or add in 5 NPMs for steel not being marked. Electonic scoring is the wave of the future and very few shooters resist it if given the proper introduction. My opinion. I agree. What I've started to do at the beginning of our monthly matches is pull aside one or two folks from each squad who volunteer to be "in charge" of the Nook for their squad for the match, and give them a quick tutorial/refresher on using PractiScore on an NST... just a few quick minutes to cover the highlights of how to ensure that all of their squads' scores are captured properly (a VERY simple task for anyone familiar with PractiScore). I've found that this strategy helps instill accountability for all scores being entered, and also builds a base of knowledgeable PractiScore users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 I think it would help alleviate a lot of the issues you are talking about. It is harder to screw up the scoring and there is no need to total. Hi Rob... That was my hope earlier this year, but after seeing some of the stuff I've seen this year doing scores... It just makes me wonder... Of course, as you know, it has not been my best year to date... Have you guys talked about using them at Eastern Shore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwren Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I score 2 monthly matches and a weekly match using Practiscore, and I get a *huge* number of comments from shooters about how much they appreciate having scores up with an hour after the match (for one match, I have to wait until I get into an area with cellular coverage ). For some matches, scores might be delayed several days. Now, that just doesn't happen. I believe that this, coupled with our more aggressive use of Shoot'n'Score It for registration has actually increased match attendance. I'm not going to throw numbers out like 25% or anything, but for Cherokee Gun Club (GA03), the majority (well over 85%) of our competitors are signing up on-line. I find a lot of people syncing against us during the match, and they LOVE it. Actually being able to compare hits, times and hit factors as a stage goes on has upped the level of competitiveness (in a friendly way). Sometimes to the extent that we have to remind people that "Hey, just because we've gone to Practiscore doesn't mean these targets are going to paste themselves!". From the start, I've been a strong advocate of Practiscore. Ken and his crew are very responsive to issues, and we've been very involved with feedback and suggestions, many of which have been implemented. This, combined with the support for additional disciplines (like Steel Challenge, etc) are becoming quite the game changer. Sure, we keep some paper around in case the world ends. But if I never have to score another large match off paper with mis-added columns, missing times, chicken scratches, and sweat/coffee/water stained runny ink writing, it'll be too soon. Nothing kills a Sunday like sitting in front of EzWinScore for 3 hours keying in scores. I am SO over that! So for those that think this isn't the way to go, enjoy your horse and buggy ride. We're motoring on into the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) There is a learning curve,... And that is the major thing that concerns me. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's a battle sometimes to even get the person keeping the score to total up the scores. ... Well, that's one of the things you get with PS. You no longer HAVE to total up the hits. And RO's everywhere no longer have to listen to me jump around telling them to total the times on a multi-string stage. It won't let you leave a target unscored. It won't let you over-score a target. It won't let you forget to write down the time. It eliminates a WHOLE lot of paper-prone errors that otherwise occur in most EVERY paper match I've ever scored. So it enhances our ability to ensure the customers' scores are correctly entered, and that is a value-add. Edited August 20, 2012 by wgnoyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 I agree that it eliminates a lot of errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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