Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

confused on oal and crimp size


colbyjack
 Share

Recommended Posts

couple part question, im new to the 40 cal game. i just got my 650 set up. im runnning sns hard cast 180 gr fp bullets. my friend help me set it up last night. this load works well in his sti 5". i think its a little long and today at the match my close and far shots are key holing.

heres what we got

bullet : hard cast 180 fp

powder : tightgroup 4.7-4.8

primer : winchester

OAL : 1.193" ( he said 1.90" - 1.20" )they lool loaded way out.

crimp: 1.419" ( i think is too tight and causing the key holing along with too long bullets )

now my book says with 180GR jhp i know im shooting lead fat point is 1.125"

so do you think the long loaded out is causing problems maybe touching rifling, or and the tight crimp causeing it to hang in the shell and hit rifling at a angle and causing the key holing?

what should my OAL be an what should i crimp the 180 lead FP to?

sorry just trying to under stand whats going on.

add info: sti 5" bull barell, dillon 650, and dillon crimp die.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve i dont know, i will pull some tonight and check. It could be possible and that may cause the key holing.

Im thinking the less crimp may be a start. The 1.419" may be crimping the lead more than just holding say a hard jacketed bullet.

What about the oal, i know some people load long for pressure. But my loads are with in the manuals min and max spec. The 4.7ish i dont think needs to be loaded long. The book says with 4.7 tightgroup to load to 1.125". So whats the benefit to going 1.190"-1.120"? I dont understand. Thanks guys

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TG really isn't a good powder for lead either which could also lead to problems. I have had good success with Ramshot Competition, WST, and Clays. I load short personally my OAL is 1.12 this way my Glock, 2011, and Single Stack, XD all can take the same ammo.

Another thing with the lead is what is the actual diameter if you have calipers? undersized and oversized can both cause problems, can you slug your barrel?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dont have a way to slug barell. What were you running with clays for a load? I have a lot of clays so I could try. My buddy set me up, I will try clays less crimp and shorter oal. Why is tight group not that great with lead? I'm open for suggestions for loads using 180gr lead flat point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never worked up a load for clays and .40 but its extremely popular so I'm sure if you searched through this .40 load section you can find some good data.

TG is really hot causes excessive leading and burns up to lube real good so it smokes a ton as well. A cooler powder is the way to go.

I load 200gr now but when I was using 180s I loaded 4.3gr of TG with Berrys 180 FP with an oal 1.12 it was a great load I loved it, but the slide got so damn hot I didn't want to unload show clear. Then I used it for .38 special and burned my hand on the cylinder, thats when I switched away from TG. However if you want a minor load 3.6gr of TG 180 berrys gave me 139pf in my glock 35 and thats what I used for production. The minor velocities don't heat the barrel as bad so it was an incredible load with very fast slide speed.

N320 and Ramshot Competition loads I have for 180 is 4.3gr oal 1.125

I'm a believer that the two powders are the same even shot them back to back and couldn't tell the difference but RC is about half the price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That crimp sounds too tight to me, although I haven't loaded lead bullets for 40 (I have done plated, which is practically the same.)

The first step to establish a desired crimp measurement is to measure casemouth thickness. Most of the ones that I've measured were in the are of 0.011 thick. Double that number to account for both sides of the case mouth (0.022). Then add the bullet diameter (let's say 0.402"). That would give you a diameter of 0.424", assuming no impingement into the bullet. All we're doing at this measurement is straightening out the case by removing the flare put in during expansion. Subtract a couple thousandths so that we are actually impinging into the bullet JUST A BIT. In this example, the crimp should measure around 0.422

If we crimp too much, we are actually re-sizing the bullet to a smaller diameter. This is bad because the rifling doesn't really have anything to grab onto. That can cause tumbling because the bullet is never really stabilized going down the bore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think anywhere north of .420 is going to be fine, but like they say, measure your brass and get a good number.

I load lead mostly, some Bayou Bullets (Love them) and some performance moly. They all crimp the same and shoot great with minimal leading.

The real advantage to loading long in the 2011 or 1911 platform is better function. The 1911 was originally built around .38 Super, then .45 ACP, both of which are longer (1.230 to 1.280) than factory .40 S&W. Loading our 40s at a longer length makes the game guns run much smoother, lessening the likelihood of a malfunction.

A properly set up 2011 will eat most any length as long as mags are within spec. I run 1.180 to 1.20 and have zero issues whatsoever. The only reason to change lengths is for the different bullets, as some are slightly longer or shorter than others in relation to where they end up in the case.

For example, the 170gr. performance moly seated at the same 1.20 oal as a Bayou 180 grain TC will actually have more case capacity inside the loaded case, even though both are seated out to a 1.20 OAL. That's why you should always load a few, shoot them through a chronograph, and assess. All guns and loads are different.

The guys above talked about Universal Clays, and I would concur. I currently shoot Bullseye, but found that they both meter and shoot almost identically. The newer Bullseye recipe might be slightly cleaner, but both are great for .40 S&W loads in our game. Most of my loads are around 4.7 grains of either powder, and they are all very near 170 power factor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

sounds good, my brass is once fired from police ranges i was told. so i have mixed cases. the bullets are sized to .401".

i will try some short and see. i made a couple dummy rounds and they cycled fine by dropping the slide and what not. i will burn up this tight group then make a switch. i have regular clays not universal. so i will check data on that.

i just picked up a chronny so i can do some testing. and see what the power factor is and check funtion while testing PF. i will load say 50 short 1.125" i know it ran the longer ones cause i shot them in the match on sunday.

i just picked up a 550 and it came with the 40 set up, i was going to trade it for a 9 set up. but maybe i short keep it for test lots on the 550 and leave the 650 alone...... hmmmm

thanks guys it gives me a few things to try. i like this new to me used 2011. im just new to loading the 40. all my loads were 45acp and cast bullets. 4.0-4.3 clays 200'230 rn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HAd the same problem last month. I am using Ramshot competition with lead bullets from unique bullets. It did tumble intially but my crimp was .418. I backed off on the crimp to .420-.421 and that seems to have solved the problem. Gun is SV LDC 5 in and Benny Hill 6 in. I have switched to 200 grainers and they are soft shooting.

Edited by bulm540
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm running 180 Xtremes with 4.4 of Titegroup at 1.130 and getting 169pf.

I run 4.5 TG and get around the same PF. I load to 1.135 for an m&p pro 40. I was using the Xtremes from Jon for awhile since his price was beating Berrys by 16 bucks per 1000. However he didn't have any in stock and it was going to take him two weeks to get more. I placed an order for some Precision Delta bullets and my accuracy has improved a lot over the Berrys and the Xtremes. I haven't done any tests from a rest but the difference is that obvious. I also have a case of Montana Gold hollowpoints that I got last week. Gonna load those up when the PD's run out. Can't wait to see how those perform.

If you have the chance I suggest giving some PD or MG bullets a try.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm running 180 Xtremes with 4.4 of Titegroup at 1.130 and getting 169pf.

I run 4.5 TG and get around the same PF. I load to 1.135 for an m&p pro 40. I was using the Xtremes from Jon for awhile since his price was beating Berrys by 16 bucks per 1000. However he didn't have any in stock and it was going to take him two weeks to get more. I placed an order for some Precision Delta bullets and my accuracy has improved a lot over the Berrys and the Xtremes. I haven't done any tests from a rest but the difference is that obvious. I also have a case of Montana Gold hollowpoints that I got last week. Gonna load those up when the PD's run out. Can't wait to see how those perform.

If you have the chance I suggest giving some PD or MG bullets a try.

Yeah, I grabbed Jon's last 1500 that he had. I'm also shooting them out of an M&P pro 40, building it up for limited/L10. I've used the PDs in my 9mm and really liked them, but I think the Xtremes in 40 that I have might last a while since i'm mostly shooting production.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back the crimp die off until the edge of the brass is just straightened out. You can hold a razor blade up to the side of the case to check the straightness. Sounds as though you have too much crimp. Also, do a "Plunk" test with your barrel to make sure you have the optimum COL length.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

I have tried a couple ways, and my fingers can tell better than my eyes when there is still a lip on the rim of the case. I just run two fingers from the base to the rim, and i can feel the drag every time. I find it a lot harder to use calipers, and sometimes my eyes are too tired for the razor blade trick. I have been wood working with hand tools for twenty years, and after sharpening chisels and planes that much, i know exactly what a Burr feels like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 years later...

Hi Guys,

 

im sorry replying to this topic with a new question. I could not find how to post a new questions. 
 

im wondering if any one of you has loaded RN FMJ or RN copper plated bullets in 10 mm Auto? All I have seen are FP (flat top) and HP bullets.

 

Regards,

 

Masood

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...