Cover?

[ProGunGuy]

In my area, we are known as "cover nasties". I have been told,in the past from people that have attended matches around the country, that we are the only place that does it. I saw first hand myself when i attended and out of state match and saw many shooter doing what was basically the isoceles position when shooting instead of pieing around and 50% of the body behind cover.

so is there really a difference in how cover is interpeted in different areas of the country?

[atbarr]

My club http://bgslinc.com/modules.php?name=BGSL_Sport_IDPA&file=page&load=Home.html follows the rules. Same for the USPSA match.

NO LOCAL RULES!

[GmanCdp]

several clubs are lax on it and that will cause alot of trouble for those shooters whenever they travel out to shoot a major match..some clubs look at it as "well we just shoot",so don't hammer the shooter to bad on certin PE's..it's all in the mind set of the MD or club owner..

some shooters complain on every stage they shot because only thier foot or knee was out only "some"and the SO yelled cover..

[sbcman]

I don't know if cover is interpreted differently in various clubs, but I do know there are some clubs a cover call is never made. I think your club is doing the shooters good and integrity goes a long way for reputation. +1

My club http://bgslinc.com/modules.php?name=BGSL_Sport_IDPA&file=page&load=Home.html follows the rules. Same for the USPSA match. NO LOCAL RULES!

+1 The IDPA club at Bluegrass is TOP NOTCH! If it wasn't a three hour drive for me I would be there every month. It's probably the best match around to prep for a major. Which leads me to....

several clubs are lax on it and that will cause alot of trouble for those shooters whenever they travel out to shoot a major match..some clubs look at it as "well we just shoot",so don't hammer the shooter to bad on certin PE's..it's all in the mind set of the MD or club owner..some shooters complain on every stage they shot because only thier foot or knee was out only "some"and the SO yelled cover..

+1 Couldn't agree more. If a guy only shoots local, it might not matter much, but if he ventures out to a major, it will be an eye-opening experience. It does the shooter no good at all to not follow the rules. It also doesn't do much at all for the integrity of the club.

Edited July 25, 2012 by sbcman

[ProGunGuy]

here is an example of what I am speaking of. If you look at the feet and legs carefully, many of them are sticking out. This would not pass at my club

[Steve Koski]

Yep. Clubs that don't call cover get RIPPED when the shooters travel. They don't even know the rule.

[Paul-the new guy]

cover is relative to the threat it is really tough to look at the video you posted and say Bob or Morgan broke cover. Except of course where the SO called cover. Perspective is everything. Put a camera on the target and see what it looks like from the targets perspective. The Florida state match had a cover nazi...too bad many of the calls were BS.

[freeidaho]

cover is relative to the threat it is really tough to look at the video you posted and say Bob or Morgan broke cover. Except of course where the SO called cover. Perspective is everything. Put a camera on the target and see what it looks like from the targets perspective. The Florida state match had a cover nazi...too bad many of the calls were BS.

I'd like to see the video of that match and the BS calls.

kr

[solaritx]

Cover (like round dumping)can and is frequently a subjective call. It's a matter of perspective. Without fault lines, it takes two people to really SO a shooter for cover. The main SO is watching the gun and is rarely in a position that they can tell absolutely that a shooter is in or out of cover (unless it's a obvious leg way out type of call). The only real way to do this is set up a visual "fault line" by the scorekeeper who has to put themselves directly behind the shooter and line up the target. This "team" approach is what most big sactioned matches do....because of trial and error....it works and is most fair. Even this isn't foolproof as they SO team must consist of individuals that know what they are doing and must be concious of their jobs often for a long hot day (or days). Sometimes individuals are not as prepared, sometimes individuals enjoy the power, sometimes individuals attention waves, sometimes individuals are in awe of some shooters and not others....people are people.

Any time that "fouls" are called and are subjective in nature, people feel that they are done unfairly. The shooter's concious attention is not generally on his/her body but rather the action of shooting and on the target. How often does one think "what?" when someone calls "cover" to prove my point. Unless the SO calling the cover can absolutely tell if the shooter is in cover or not then the call should go to the shooter. Often in cover it does not. Unless the shooter is blatently out of cover, the only one that can really call cover correctly is not the main SO but the scorekeeper.

This inconsistancy in the game is IMO why and how clubs call things differently and in the long run....can be a problem for our IDPA shooters. The subjective nature of this is the typical problem once again with the inconstant nature of how the rules are applied differently across the world. Subjective = people doing it "their" way or how THEY inturp. the rule. Make it clear and remove the subjective nature and it is done the same for everyone.

Until such time as IDPA takes as much of the subjective element out of the Cover call, this issue will be discussed with little to no resolution. I know that fault lines have their pros and cons, but at least it will be much more clear to both the shooter and the SO when a foul has occured. (example: slice the pie on three targets around a wall. Three pieces of tape on the floor or three small painted lines on the ground where the MD indicates correct cover. One SO can look and see from just about any position to know that shooter is correct or incorrect. KISS principle IMO

Garry N

[mike l m]

I've read this thread with interest, only because I am a SO Ins. I have said time and time again, this is a game, and if you play, play by the rules. The cover issue is not new. Has been there for a long time. Been shooting IDPA since 1996. On a local level, I have to call out cover even to the newbies. Only because I would not want them to get burned at another match somewhere else. May it be a State Championship, Regional Match,etc. If you know the rules and want to set it up as an IDPA Club, then do it right.

If that means calling out cover and giving a PE for none use of cover, so be it. All of the rules were set up for this GAME so everyone has a level playing field in each division. I understand there are gray areas for this also and the benifit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.

Just get out and shoot,have a great time and learn to play the GAME by the rules.

Thanks,

Mike

[lugnut]

Somes SOs love to call it... some don't unless they are 100% certain cover is not being used. Like others have said- it not easy for one SO to call cover as they need to be watching the gun. Personally- I hate the ambiguity of this rule... and there is ambiguity. Of course we can't eliminate subjectivity, as we can't in many sports, but the other games have an easy way to address this with fault lines. Oh yeah.. but we're supposed to use cover. Sure but it is a game and people will always push the limits which makes it more challenging to officiate.

I've seen it at club matches and at major matches- some SOs will let some get away with less cover than others... after all not many SOs would want to give Vogel a PE at a major match... or give the local MD a PE.

There's an easy fix but I doubt IDPA will do it. Until then we get to deal with this inconsistency. I was always give the benefit of doubt to the shooter if I'm not 100%... if that means someone gets to stick out their baby toe I'm ok with that in my mind.

Edited July 26, 2012 by lugnut

[steel1212]

Cover is as cover does.....or something like that. I've been hit harder at the match at BGSL than the one major match I went to. I was actually surprised people could do what they where doing at the IDPA major I was at. Its all subjective.

[Glshooter]

I have seen it both ways, either no cover at all or absolute cover nazis who yell at you if you are even close to the end of cover. One SO called cover before I got to a shooting position. I even had an SO give me a procedural because he said I shot the stage too fast and I must have not used cover somewhere. Bottom line, as long as we have a rule that requires an SO to make a judgement call instead of a definitive line we will always have problems.

[GOF]

The proper use of cover under varying situations is actually one of the few things in the IDPA Rule book that is reasonably well defined, and shouldn't be subject to a great deal of individual interpretation. The problem is with new and inexperienced SOs that are not in a proper position to actually see what type of cover the shooter is using. I am a SO (6 years and MA class shooter), and if I'm running the timer my job (as per the Rule Book) is to watch the gun. Sometimes I can watch the gun and the 'cover'. Sometimes I can't. The ASO (scorekeeper) is really the one who should be watching/calling COVER.

The problem is that you do not always have those two experienced SOs available for each to do their proper job. Nor, do they always have the experience to do their job properly. IDPA has grown so quickly that you have Novice and MM class SOs with less than a year experience running stages at sanctioned matches. They do not always perform to expectations.

Then, you do have the 'Cover Nazis" who may have read the Rule Book at some point in previous years, but do have their own 'wrinkle' on what is... or is not... proper use of cover -- irrespective of what the Rule Book actually says. I think the term for this is "Tribal Rules".

It does result in a mess at times.

I think IDPA HQ is aware of this problem. But, what they are doing about it is unclear.

[Paul-the new guy]

cover is relative to the threat it is really tough to look at the video you posted and say Bob or Morgan broke cover. Except of course where the SO called cover. Perspective is everything. Put a camera on the target and see what it looks like from the targets perspective. The Florida state match had a cover nazi...too bad many of the calls were BS.

I'd like to see the video of that match and the BS calls.

kr

what do you think? First guy never moved his feet or legs and I heard cover?? Second guy the camera perspective makes it tough to tell but he looks good to me. This stage was pretty tough I would guess 30% of the shooters got a cover call... I didn't get video nor did I get a cover call but I saw a lot of calls that were very suspect...

[RickB]

Some clubs/SOs regard cover as a place, while others regard cover a "state of being". The former want you near something that represents something that will stop bullets, while the latter only require that the shooter cannot see any unneutralized threats. I think that's much more of an issue than is "how many toes are hanging out". I will admit that I have seen videos appearing to show shooters standing squarely in a doorway while engaging targets, with no cover call, and can't understand how that flies anywhere. The videos above appear to show, in the first case, a shooter who may have their foot exposed at ~33 second mark, but the SO appears to not be in position to make the call. The second video shows the SO signal a penalty while the shooter isn't shooting, so have no idea what that penalty was for, unless he thought the shooter was going to engage while moving, rather than from cover. Again, the SO, who probably expected the shooter to approach the barrel before shooting, was in no position to determine if the shooter was using cover, or not.

At our state match, shot last weekend, one of the stages had two walls, one about ten feet downrange of the other, with the far left end of the uprange wall almost aligned laterally with the far right end of the downrange wall. A shooter could stand close to the uprange wall to engage the first two targets, then essentially pie the other wall by merely stepping forward. It was decided to invoke "arm's length", as cover was interpreted as a place - the wall - and so standing ten feet from the wall was not using it for cover. Is that a novel interpretation?

Edited July 31, 2012 by RickB

[GOF]

I think those rulings come under the heading of "Tribal Rules", enacted by local clubs, or ill-informed/rookie SOs who happen to get dragged into the officiating process at Sanctioned Matches (seen too many of those!). They don't seem to be in the Rule Book.

I think the Tiger Teams are addressing the SO issue

[RickB]

So, what IS in the rule book? Nothing that's contrary to the above.

[BillD]

Hell I went to a State match in IL years back and they weren't even going to use a cover garment until some of us protested.

It was high summer and some of the locals were using winter jackets as cover garments because they NEVER used cover garments in matches. Too hot, they said. You only have to wear it for about 5 minutes a match...

One of the reasons I don't shoot it anymore.

[Bones]

I have seen it both ways, either no cover at all or absolute cover nazis who yell at you if you are even close to the end of cover. One SO called cover before I got to a shooting position. I even had an SO give me a procedural because he said I shot the stage too fast and I must have not used cover somewhere. Bottom line, as long as we have a rule that requires an SO to make a judgement call instead of a definitive line we will always have problems.

You were definately shooting too fast or intending to do so Dave. Slow down - about 2.0 sec/18 rd. stage ought to make everyone happy.

Craig

[ProGunGuy]

here is another cover question. I have been told that warning people of cover is just a courtesy, and not required by the rule book.

Is this correct?

thanks

[sbcman]

here is another cover question. I have been told that warning people of cover is just a courtesy, and not required by the rule book.

Is this correct?

thanks

From the book:

"Safety Officers who observe a shooter not using cover properly

should shout the command “COVER”. The shooter should

immediately correct his use of cover. IDPA understands many

shooters are often too fast in engaging targets for the SO to be able

to warn the shooter in time. Therefore, if the Safety Officer did

not have the time or opportunity to yell “COVER” before the

shooter engaged targets without using cover properly, the shooter

still earns a procedural error."

Also, if the shooter does not respond to the cover call and fires, he earns himself a procedural.

[lugnut]

I have seen it both ways, either no cover at all or absolute cover nazis who yell at you if you are even close to the end of cover. One SO called cover before I got to a shooting position. I even had an SO give me a procedural because he said I shot the stage too fast and I must have not used cover somewhere. Bottom line, as long as we have a rule that requires an SO to make a judgement call instead of a definitive line we will always have problems.

You were definately shooting too fast or intending to do so Dave. Slow down - about 2.0 sec/18 rd. stage ought to make everyone happy.

Craig

LMAO.

[Bones]

So, here's what we know:

There is definitely a fault line - perhaps not called so - but a fault line in all aspects and characteristics save name. To avoid pedantic ambiguities, let's just call that point in space "it".

Only the specific SO knows for certain where it is at any given moment in time and space, because, as we know, it moves as you do. Many SOs do not agree where it is, so what really matters is who has the clipboard, as they have the ultimate power in determining it.

Some SOs discuss it privately on stages, some publicly and some not at all, but suffice to say one SO's it is not necessarily another's.

It is especially entertaining at club matches where SOs move with squads, as it - either its absence or existence at any given point in time - creates a highly fluid and dynamic situation - and hence a lively discussion.

This is because sometimes it exists and sometimes it does not on the same stage, its existence being separated only by time. It might not exist when you start, but it appears later. So you don't need to use it at the beginning, but have to in the middle or at the end of a stage.

It also depends on what Division you are shooting, as it is apparently weapon capacity sensitive. Revolvers are especially vulnerable to it, as they require more of it than other higher capacity Divisions and it tends to be in rather odd places - places where it does not exist for the other Divisions. Interstingly, though time dependent, it is not consistent - for instance a Revolver shooter would be forced to use it because he has expended 6 rd 2.5 sec into a stage after starting in the open where it did not exist, but a semi auto shooter who took 5.0 seconds to get to expend the same number of rd and arrive at the same location and time point does not need to use it, because it does not exist yet for him. Or, conversely, sometimes revolvers don't need to use it because it does not exist for the first reload, but does for subsequent ones. This may or may not be related to the "fast" attribute below - I'm not really sure.

It is also apparently light sensitive, as flashlight stages sometimes don't require it, but the same stage with the lights on does.

This can be confusing sometimes, but it happens nonetheless.

Sometimes they tell you beforehand where it is or will be.

Sometimes you have to ask where it is or will be.

Sometimes they answer when you ask with a location; sometimes they'll answer when you ask with the rulebook reference; and sometimes they won't answer at all because "you should know".

Sometimes they tell you during your performance if you are past it. The faster you go, however, the less likely you will know if you are past it "during" because, if you are fast, you must be experienced, and therefore "you should know" where it is. For clarity "fast" means faster than someone else - specifically the someone else who is knowledgeable of it and enforcing the specific rule about it.

Unequivocally, they will always tell you after you are done, when you can't do anything about it.

... and to address any ambiguities and inconsistencies:

Someone, somewhere, at some time in the future will address some, all or none of these issues if they so choose in some way that made sense to them - and is agreed to by someone else (not you). They will tell you when they are done.

Clear?

In the mean time, I ask, I watch and I try to stay away from those places that are probably it as best I can. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I am not.

It is the nature of the beast.

In summary : it depends, just not on you.

Craig

Edited August 2, 2012 by Bones

[GOF]

Thank you, Craig. Your scientifically-trained mind has cleared the matter up beautifully