Calling the RM/MD for Prod bump to Open?

[Anopsis]

First time I've had to bump a shooter, and the MD is displeased. Trying to sort out the issues and be sure I either handled it correctly, or will in the future if not.

A new shooter in Production was on our squad, and since it was terribly hot we were rotating ROs a lot.

We're halfway through a six stage match when I ran him and discovered he was, and had been, loading to capacity (17 rounds).

I conferred with another RO and we agreed the proper call was a bump to Open. We jointly explained the situation to the shooter and he was fine with it.

I mentioned it later to the MD and was told two things:

1) I must get approval from the RM/MD for a division change or DQ; and

2) At level 1 a new shooter can be counseled for equipment violations

I don't have a rule book with me on the road so I can't look it up. Do I have to get approval for these calls?

Also, I can understand being lenient on a newbie, but having shot three full stages loading 7 extra rounds per mag is a major competitive advantage. I don't see that I had any other choice than to bump.

To be fair, I only told the MD that I bumped the shooter for equipment violations; she does not yet know of the severity.

I would imagine (hope) she'll understand the bump once I explain it.

So did I make the right call here? And what about the approval from RM/MD for the bump?

I just want to ensure fairness AND that I'm following the rules. I'd appreciate the guidance.

[mactiger]

Right call, and the only one you could make. The RM should be notified, but no approval needed, and the MD has no say here. See 7.1.6 & 7.1.7 for their respective roles and responsibilities. No counselling, either.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Right call, and the only one you could make. The RM should be notified, but no approval needed, and the MD has no say here. See 7.1.6 & 7.1.7 for their respective roles and responsibilities. No counselling, either.

Troy, with due respect, I feel that counseling is in order after the DQ so the shooter is aware of this and other rules he/she may have overlooked. Is that wrong?

Edited July 24, 2012 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[diehli]

I think you two have different definitions of counseling.

By counseling I think Troy means telling the shooter what he did wrong and allowing him to correct it. It's the second part where there's the divergence.

The rules don't allow for correction, and they shouldn't. A good RO should explain what's happening and why to a new shooter, but shouldn't break the rules for the new shooter nor delight in bumping him or her.

Edited for clarification of a point.

Edited July 24, 2012 by diehli

[Pat Miles]

You made the right call. Not to do so would have been unfair to the other Production shooters who were following the rules.You might show the rule book to the RO and MD regarding their non need of approval on their part. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. Explain to the newbie the why's and wherefores and suggest that it would be in his best interest to become familiar with the rules of the game. Offer to answer any questions he might have regarding the rules.

I will probably take some heat for what I'm about to say but if the MD and RO override you I would probably hesitate to RO again until everybody agrees to abide by the rules.

Pat

[Anopsis]

Further clarification: The reason I said RM/MD is that the MD is acting RM for these club matches.

Regarding what I was told, here's the quote from email:

"No shooter can be moved to another division without calling for the range master just like DQ's."

That's why I was questioning it. I know shooters can protest my ruling and ask for arbitration, but I didn't think I needed permission, and you'll note she didn't verbatim say I needed permission, but to me it implies that.

I DID fail to notify the RM/MD about it until post-match.

[mactiger]

Right call, and the only one you could make. The RM should be notified, but no approval needed, and the MD has no say here. See 7.1.6 & 7.1.7 for their respective roles and responsibilities. No counselling, either.

Troy, with due respect, I feel that counseling is in order after the DQ so the shooter is aware of this and other rules he/she may have overlooked. Is that wrong?

A little counseling about the rules is fine after the move.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that; I meant no counselling and allowing him to continue in Production.

A little pre-match talk to the new shooters by the MD/RM in this case, covering not only safety rules but division requirements might have helped. Sounds like the competitor took it well, which tells me the ROs were professional about it.

[mactiger]

Further clarification: The reason I said RM/MD is that the MD is acting RM for these club matches.

Regarding what I was told, here's the quote from email:

"No shooter can be moved to another division without calling for the range master just like DQ's."

That's why I was questioning it. I know shooters can protest my ruling and ask for arbitration, but I didn't think I needed permission, and you'll note she didn't verbatim say I needed permission, but to me it implies that.

I DID fail to notify the RM/MD about it until post-match.

The rule calls for notification, not approval from the RM, and mainly pertains to DQ situations, but you should still call the RM. Range officers can certainly make these calls, and they are official calls, with or without the RM.

[Tim/GA]

Further clarification: The reason I said RM/MD is that the MD is acting RM for these club matches.

Regarding what I was told, here's the quote from email:

"No shooter can be moved to another division without calling for the range master just like DQ's."

That's why I was questioning it. I know shooters can protest my ruling and ask for arbitration, but I didn't think I needed permission, and you'll note she didn't verbatim say I needed permission, but to me it implies that.

I DID fail to notify the RM/MD about it until post-match.

Here are the rules:

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails

to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match,

the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of

the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equip-

ment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is

available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the

competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

6.2.5.2 A competitor who is classified or reclassified as above must be

notified as soon as possible. The Range Master’s decision on

these matters is final.

Thus, you made right call but should have notified the RM as soon as you could. I guess from reading it that the RM could override the decision but I don't see how using the rules. The MD and stats would need to be informed so that the division could be changed, but that is the only reason.

For both this case and a DQ, the RM is supposed to be notified ASAP but neither is about the RM making decision- that is the RO. I would hope that this is more of a case of a misunderstanding because of the way it was worded in an email.

edit: I forgot to add that the last part of this "The Range Master’s decision on

these matters is final." means there is no arbitration for these decisions. Correct?

Edited July 24, 2012 by Tim/GA

[Sarge]

You did the right thing. I am a brand spanking new MD and what I told my RO's is that I want to know ASAP of anything that happens during the match. I'm talking Level I , so yes MD=RM. I don't want to know what happens so I can overturn a call. Which by the way could happen if an RO mistake was made, etc. But the reason I want to know about anything and everything that happens is so when I get an email or phone call two days after the match from an unhappy patron I will know the facts and have been a part of the decision. I would have never worded the email the way your MD did. But I would have probably sent one to all RO's asking them to please make sure I am in the loop on all rules issues or anything else that happens. This way I also feel it takes the pressure off of an RO who may be feeling bad over what happened.

The buck stops with the MD/RM.

[sperman]

I know it isn't reasonable, but I wish MD's were required to be RO's. At level 1 matches, most MD are also the RM, but many of them have never read the rulebook.

[Sarge]

Doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me. I think it should be a requirement as well. I can't imagine trying to MD without being at least a certified RO, preferably a CRO. Seems to all go hand in hand to me.

[Flexmoney]

A bit off topic, but... I always suggest that the MD try to get somebody else to be the RM. That igves a different perspective and reduces conflict of interest.

[StealthyBlagga]

Edited to say what I really meant to say: RM approval is not required by the rules, but I can understand the RM wanting to have the final say on DQs etc. at a Level 1 match because the guy holding the clock may not always have the rules familiarity to make a good call. From your description of how the match is run, I can believe this is a problem the RM has had before.

Edited July 27, 2012 by StealthyBlagga

[mactiger]

It is in the rules. See 7.1.6.

[MGMorden]

Sounds like the right call to me. 17 round mags - new shooter or not - can have a significant effect on the final outcome. I seriously doubt that'd win them the match, but SOMEWHERE down the list there may be somebody who is bumped down a spot that they should have gotten.

Also notification of these types of things to the MD seems par for course, but not really "approval". As an RO your call stands. Given sufficient evidence the RM may overrule/overturn the call, but the RO's making the call and is just stands unless a mistake has been made (by the RO).

Edited August 2, 2012 by MGMorden

[BillD]

Keep a copy of the rules in your range bag.

Of course the RM/MD will probably end up pissed if you show him a rule explaining why you don't need his permission or consent to move someone to open.

People are funny like that.