Chills1994 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 major....major thread drift here... I'm sure this has been hashed over before...butttt... Maybe somebody could explain the philosphical/ideological logic or reasoning behind just calling a balky popper a range equipment malfunction and giving the competitor a reshoot? (ASSuming the hit was in the calibration zone, ASSuming that all steel/poppers were painted between shooters and there clearly is a black/grey splatter mark is in the calibration zone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Brad, I split your post into a new thread, as you should have done. When you feel compelled to add that many caveats and admissions about thread drift, just start a new topic. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) Thanks Mark! Edited July 10, 2012 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I didn't know a balky popper was REF. I thought that was why we drive it down to pick up speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Instead of having the RM cOme over with his special 9mm calibration gun and shooting a popper still standing with his special 120 ish PF ammo, if it is obvious the shooter got a good hit on the popper, why not just call it a REMF and give the shooter an automatic reshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 why not just call it a REMF and give the shooter an automatic reshoot? I'm sure some clubs do. Guess it depends on the match level, squad mates, club culture, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Instead of having the RM cOme over with his special 9mm calibration gun and shooting a popper still standing with his special 120 ish PF ammo, if it is obvious the shooter got a good hit on the popper, why not just call it a REMF and give the shooter an automatic reshoot? Because the rules say so. Local level 1 matches I'm sure this type of thing happens all the time. Any sort of major match and you have to follow the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 why not just call it a REMF and give the shooter an automatic reshoot? I'm sure some clubs do. Guess it depends on the match level, squad mates, club culture, etc. And others swing the other direction. Although, they will respect your request to challenge the calibration of a popper, they would much rather keep the match going and have you shoot the popper until it goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 why not just call it a REMF and give the shooter an automatic reshoot? At a local match, that's what often happens. Although the RO will sometimes check the popper themselves with the knuckle test or will shoot the popper low with a 9mm and see what happens. We had this happen at a match and it turned out that the shooter was shooting under powered ammo that he bought from some guy at a gun show. In all honesty, local matches often have steel set so light that they can be knocked down with a .22. If it doesn't go down, it's almost never a calibration problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) Most all re-shots are requirements not -'given' on all REF its a requirement. As an RO my desire is to give all the shooters a 'fair attempt' at the stage. I want the same thing as a shooter = a Fair attempt at the stage= As a shooter if a popper does not fall when I am shooting and call a good shot I end up looking back and making a decision of whether or not to take another shot. that eats up time and effects my score. after putting in the time to for a great RO class by Troy M. I don't think I have "given" a reshoot at any match I ROed at. All of them were Required reshoots Edited July 10, 2012 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 why not just call it a REMF Have not heard REMF in a loooong time. Us combat arms guys called all the support troops REMFs. Rear Echelon Mother F*****rs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Corey wrote: Because the rules say so..... Why? Which was what I was getting at in my OP, what are the philosphical or ideological reasonings or logic, behind NOT just calling it a REF/REMF and giving the shooter an automatic reshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Instead of having the RM cOme over with his special 9mm calibration gun and shooting a popper still standing with his special 120 ish PF ammo, if it is obvious the shooter got a good hit on the popper, why not just call it a REMF and give the shooter an automatic reshoot? Because the rules say so. Local level 1 matches I'm sure this type of thing happens all the time. Any sort of major match and you have to follow the rule book. Level 1 matches are supposed to follow the rulebook too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Corey wrote: Because the rules say so..... Why? Which was what I was getting at in my OP, what are the philosphical or ideological reasonings or logic, behind NOT just calling it a REF/REMF and giving the shooter an automatic reshoot? I think the problems comes in when the bullet is close to the edge, or close to the bottom of the calibration zone. I personally like the idea, but I think it is hard to manage. Most of the L1 matches I shoot don't paint the steel, so that would be the first problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 this thread was started with the assumption/caveat that there is a clearly visible splatter mark in the calibration zone... And it still didn't go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Could be low powered ammo or that one round was short cycled during reloading, whatever. Just can't willy-nilly call REF and have them re-shoot because where do you then draw the line from within the calibration zone? Rulebook shows you the calibration zone, clear as a bell. Even an edge hit falls into the calibration zone, but you don't call REF and give a re-shoot for an edge hit. Painting steel between shooters is a must, otherwise call REF on any edge hit and give any shooter another run at it. I remember shooting the Buckeye Blast a good number of years ago, steel was set up at a good distance on one stage. My ammo had been calibrated at what I was shooting at that time (130 PF). I hit them dead center and one did not fall. Called for calibration. Bang, it fell. Just giving me REF would not have been justified or fair to the other shooters. That's when I moved up to 137-139 minimum PF for my rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim/GA Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 why not just call it a REMF Have not heard REMF in a loooong time. Us combat arms guys called all the support troops REMFs. Rear Echelon Mother F*****rs. Dead on Sarge, if people keep calling them REMFs I won't get through a post! Agree about the rules being required at the Level 1 as well. One of few things that I just cannot do at ours is painting between every shooter. Just no way to do it and clear the range in time for club members at the range we use. That sets up the situation where any hit on the steel leaves it up to the shooter to decide to shoot again, leave it or leave it and call for calibration after finishing the course of fire. I do have calibration ammo for those times, but rarely happens as most shoot again. Also, reshoots were something the RO class really did a good job pointing out. In most cases there is no "do you want a reshoot", it is either reshoot or zero the stage. I am just going by memory, but I believe the only time a shooter gets to decide about a reshoot (other than deciding to call for calibration on a popper) is due to interference. The shooter has to decide before seeing the time or score- but then it is their decision. The rest REQUIRE a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Just how much steel do ya'll put out on stages? Or are squad sizes that small you cannot paint between shooters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 it's because they are there to recognize power, you need to hit them with full power ammo if the round in question is low powered for whatever reason it may not go down, without a calibration we have no way to know if it's failure to fall was ammo related or if the popper failed. Mike 4.3.1.1 Poppers are approved targets designed to recognize power and must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Why have a chronograph stage, then? I'm sure you have seen the ground conditions under a popper change over the course of a match??? So basically each time it falls its reset position changes such that it is far from being in the same position it was when the RM fired his pre-match calibration shots at it. In short, it is a crude and variable instrument for measuring power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 So you are essentially saying that the tie should go to the gunner? I think it should too. That way, we don't have to wait for the RO/MD/whomever to do anything, we just set that shooter at the end of the rotation, and reset, and keep running! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Our new popper design has the popper and the base as two separate pieces just for that reason. The base no longer gets pounded into the mud because the popper is not physically attached to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie j Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) The problem as I see it s a popper that has not been reset improperly or is somehow heavy gets disturbed by the competitors shot or shots then , passes calibration . We really have not tested the popper in the identical condition it was in when the competitor shot it. Poppers should not be a measure of power factor, they should be treated like plates. Edited because I can't type Edited July 11, 2012 by Ronnie j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I have seen matches where they called for calibration before it is needed due to popper failure. They notice that a popper is getting slower at going down so they make the call and then adjust it once the RM gets to the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leas327 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Poppers are designed to recognize power factor. Not be the decider of power factor. That is why they are suppose to be calibrated with 120 pf ammo. That way any legal ammo used should knock it down. Calibration is the stage where your ammo is tested. Not poppers during a course of fire. If it doesn't fall you have the choice, shoot it again or call for calibration. In my short time in the game I have seen poppers knock themselves out of calibration due to being in soft ground, the hinges break, and guys just flat out using sub minor ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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