Grabbing a magazine off a table after start signal

[Skydiver]

CoF has a loaded and holstered gun start. Beyond specifying a start position, the stage procedure was "Engage targets as visible from within the shooting area." At "Make Ready" the a single stack shooter stands in front of a table pulls a magazine from behind the hip bone, tops off his gun with this magazine, and then leaves the magazine on the table. He pulls another magazine from behind the hip bone and puts it into his gun. After the start signal, during the CoF, the shooters plan falls apart and he instinctively grabs the magazine off the table and continues shooting.

So after RIC, what is the right call?

My first thought was "bump to Open" but I had to think hard about it. I came to the conclusion that it is not the right call. If the rule to be invoked was 5.2.4 and 6.2.5.1 based on equipment not being at the right place, then there would be inequality between the divisions. If a non-Open shooter perform that action, they would be bumped to Open. If an Open shooter performed that action, then no penalty since they already are in Open.

So that brings me to my second thought "Shoot for no score". Again the same two rules come into play, but the last clause of 6.2.5.1 would apply. Seems a bit harsh though.

So my third thought was at least one procedural under 10.2.2. But I couldn't identify what "procedure specified in the written stage briefing" the shooter failed to comply with.

I don't think it's relevant what the final call made by more experienced RO's and CRO's than me was. (As far as I know, the RM was not called into the discussion if it makes any difference.)

If I had to make the call, I would have gone with 10.2.2 and claim that there is an implied procedure by 5.2.4 that mags must come from the belt or legal apparel pockets.

How would you rule if you were the RO?

[kevin c]

Hmmm...

Perhaps a reshoot is in order. The RO should not have allowed the "staging" of a magazine in the course of fire. The rules prohibit altering the COF, and putting mags on the COF not explicitly OK'd in the WSB have been classified as such. He should not have been given a start signal, so I think it is an RO error to be rectified by a RS.

[aztecdriver]

Hmmm...

Perhaps a reshoot is in order. The RO should not have allowed the "staging" of a magazine in the course of fire. The rules prohibit altering the COF, and putting mags on the COF not explicitly OK'd in the WSB have been classified as such. He should not have been given a start signal, so I think it is an RO error to be rectified by a RS.

+1 --- I was thinking this... I watched someone try to do that this weekend by setting a magazine on top of a box with the gun on the barrel type start, only problem, the COF didn't say you could. This then defaults to the belt. I'm sure they were thinking the mag wouldn't be needed, but I see the problem.

[sperman]

I agree with Kevin. The RO shouldn't have started the shooter with the mag on top of the barrel (kind of the opposite of where the shooter is required to stage all the mags prior to the COF, but accidentally leaves one on his belt.)

5.2.4 tells us that the magazines should be on his belt. It doesn't assign a penalty if the magazines aren't on the belt at the start signal, so I think it falls on the RO, and the competitor must reshoot.

[Skydiver]

Somebody on this board had an ironclad list of "here are the only reasons to order a reshoot". I forget who it was now.

I don't think "RO error" was in that list unless "RO error" fell under interference, inability to accurately score a target, or having influenced a popper that was being challenged.

I suspect looking at that list, would 8.2.2 have to be "stretched" a little bit? The rule just states that a reshoot is in order if the shooter started in the incorrect position. In the case above, the shooter started in the correct position. It just happened that the rest of his equipment wasn't with him. :-)

I don't think there a reshoot reason allowed due to altering the CoF. Could staging the mag be classified as range equipment failure, in which case a reshoot is allowed?

I hate to bring up FA, but does 3.2.6 come into play at least in order that a reshoot be ordered?

[GrumpyOne]

You guys remember the old saying batted around here many times?

If it is not strictly forbidden, then it must be allowed. The WSB did not forbid him from staging magazines, nor can any penalty be applied (IMO), as he was shooting the COF freestyle.

Having that mag on the barrel and retrieving it and using it is really no different than during the COF the shooter dropping a mag and going back later, picking it up and using it.

Again this is only my opinion.

[GrumpyOne]

I agree with Kevin. The RO shouldn't have started the shooter with the mag on top of the barrel (kind of the opposite of where the shooter is required to stage all the mags prior to the COF, but accidentally leaves one on his belt.)

5.2.4 tells us that the magazines should be on his belt. It doesn't assign a penalty if the magazines aren't on the belt at the start signal, so I think it falls on the RO, and the competitor must reshoot.

Should and shall have different meanings. While his mags should be on his belt, there is nothing saying they shall be on his belt.

[Poppa Bear]

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose

[sperman]

I agree with Kevin. The RO shouldn't have started the shooter with the mag on top of the barrel (kind of the opposite of where the shooter is required to stage all the mags prior to the COF, but accidentally leaves one on his belt.)

5.2.4 tells us that the magazines should be on his belt. It doesn't assign a penalty if the magazines aren't on the belt at the start signal, so I think it falls on the RO, and the competitor must reshoot.

Should and shall have different meanings. While his mags should be on his belt, there is nothing saying they shall be on his belt.

Try reading 5.2.4

[GrumpyOne]

I agree with Kevin. The RO shouldn't have started the shooter with the mag on top of the barrel (kind of the opposite of where the shooter is required to stage all the mags prior to the COF, but accidentally leaves one on his belt.)

5.2.4 tells us that the magazines should be on his belt. It doesn't assign a penalty if the magazines aren't on the belt at the start signal, so I think it falls on the RO, and the competitor must reshoot.

Should and shall have different meanings. While his mags should be on his belt, there is nothing saying they shall be on his belt.

Try reading 5.2.4

Sorry, missed that one. Still, is it any different than a discarded magazine which can be retrieved and used? He loaded his weapon, discarded the mag, and went back later and picked it up.

[aztecdriver]

Sorry, missed that one. Still, is it any different than a discarded magazine which can be retrieved and used? He loaded his weapon, discarded the mag, and went back later and picked it up.

Yes, in fact, it's different.

5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

The discarded magazine in question happened before the start signal.

[Skydiver]

I agree with Kevin. The RO shouldn't have started the shooter with the mag on top of the barrel (kind of the opposite of where the shooter is required to stage all the mags prior to the COF, but accidentally leaves one on his belt.)

5.2.4 tells us that the magazines should be on his belt. It doesn't assign a penalty if the magazines aren't on the belt at the start signal, so I think it falls on the RO, and the competitor must reshoot.

Should and shall have different meanings. While his mags should be on his belt, there is nothing saying they shall be on his belt.

Try reading 5.2.4

Sorry, missed that one. Still, is it any different than a discarded magazine which can be retrieved and used? He loaded his weapon, discarded the mag, and went back later and picked it up.

GrumpyOne is probably remembering the old phrasing of 5.2.4 in the old Green book when it used to say "should"

5.2.4 Spare ammunition, magazines, and speed loading devices should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire.

[GrumpyOne]

Sorry, missed that one. Still, is it any different than a discarded magazine which can be retrieved and used? He loaded his weapon, discarded the mag, and went back later and picked it up.

Yes, in fact, it's different.

5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

The discarded magazine in question happened before the start signal.

But where does it say he can't retrieve one dropped before the start signal? You can't dispute that he didn't discard it, but there is no rule saying he can't pick it up, other than all ammo shall be on the belt. But that rule in itself is contradictory. If all ammo has to be on the belt, then picking up a dropped mag during a COF is a no no. I know 5.5.2 says you can, but 5.2.4 says all shall be on the belt.

Probably way off in left field here....

Edited July 10, 2012 by GrumpyOne

[Nik Habicht]

Sorry, missed that one. Still, is it any different than a discarded magazine which can be retrieved and used? He loaded his weapon, discarded the mag, and went back later and picked it up.

Yes, in fact, it's different.

5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules.

The discarded magazine in question happened before the start signal.

But where does it say he can't retrieve one dropped before the start signal? You can't dispute that he didn't discard it, but there is no rule saying he can't pick it up, other than all ammo shall be on the belt. But that rule in itself is contradictory. If all ammo has to be on the belt, then picking up a dropped mag during a COF is a no no. I know 5.5.2 says you can, but 5.2.4 says all shall be on the belt.

Probably way off in left field here....

Grumpy,

the issue isn't that the competitor retrieved the mag -- it's that he was allowed to start with the mag on the table. Start positions and equipment locations at the start are supposed to be consistent, that's why start position and handgun ready condition need to be defined in the WSB, and why we have language about ammo shall be carried on the belt.....

[twodownzero]

I agree with Kevin. The RO shouldn't have started the shooter with the mag on top of the barrel (kind of the opposite of where the shooter is required to stage all the mags prior to the COF, but accidentally leaves one on his belt.)

5.2.4 tells us that the magazines should be on his belt. It doesn't assign a penalty if the magazines aren't on the belt at the start signal, so I think it falls on the RO, and the competitor must reshoot.

Should and shall have different meanings. While his mags should be on his belt, there is nothing saying they shall be on his belt.

Actually "should" and "shall" do not necessarily have different meanings.

One of the problems with the word "shall" is that it can mean "must," "may," or "should," depending on the circumstances.

This is one of the reasons why we should seek to remove the word shall completely from the rule book and replace it with may, should, or must as appropriate.

Volumes have been written on the abuse of the word "shall" in drafting contracts and statutes.

[Ronnie j]

The RO should not have allowed it, but it's not grounds for a reshoot I think the proper penalty should be one procedural per shot fired from staged mag.

[aztecdriver]

The RO should not have allowed it, but it's not grounds for a reshoot I think the proper penalty should be one procedural per shot fired from staged mag.

We've already attempted to set the ground for a reshoot here in that the course was not properly set by the RO before the shooter was started. By what rule are you assigning procedurals in your interpretation?

[Ronnie j]

Significant advantage gained by reloading to an illegally placed magazine. 10.2.2

Edited July 10, 2012 by Ronnie j

[sperman]

What part of the WSB did he violate?

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not applytwo different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural).

[Ronnie j]

5.2.4 during the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated other- wise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

So the way I read these two rules he didn't comply with the WSB because it doesn't say he can stage his mags, in doing so gained significant advantage.

If he staged but didn't use it, 1 penalty

Edited July 11, 2012 by Ronnie j

[Nik Habicht]

5.2.4 during the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated other- wise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the

So the way I read these two rules he didn't comply with the WSB because it doesn't say he can stage his mags, in doing so gained significant advantage.

If he staged but didn't use it, 1 penalty

We don't penalize the competitor for bad officiating. Since the RO should never have started him, a reshoot is the only viable solution....

[Ronnie j]

I agree that it should have been corrected before, I said so I my first post. But if you take these rules and apply it to a stage where the competitor did it on purpose , say on a barrel down range , where he could use a staged mag later in the course of fire to gain and advantage , does he also earn a reshoot or do we apply to rules as written to that guy?

[glefos]

I am inclined to agree with Ronnie. His rationale is more logical to me than the improperly staged course explanation. Chapter 5 is specific to competitors equipment. If you want to cite improperly staged course, there are other chapters that specifically deal with the Course.

[Nik Habicht]

I agree that it should have been corrected before, I said so I my first post. But if you take these rules and apply it to a stage where the competitor did it on purpose , say on a barrel down range , where he could use a staged mag later in the course of fire to gain and advantage , does he also earn a reshoot or do we apply to rules as written to that guy?

Reshoot. ROs control the stage -- they should have been paying attention. Now, if I'm RMing the match, and am informed of the need for the reshoot, I'll also explain it to the competitor. Honest mistakes happen. Folks trying to game the system -- well, first there's the reshoot gods, and then if they try it again, 10.6.1 might be in order.....

[Ronnie j]

What section in the rule book refers to reshoot gods? A match DQ is too severe for the infraction , I would stand by my call . I can see where your coming from Nik and I do not use the rule book as a club to bash shooters, but I do think it's important in this case to emphasis the importance of shooter compliance to the WSB .