Targets taped before shooter sees results

[Graham Smith]

I think there are no good reasons for the clipboard RO to be scoring instead of doing his job while the shooter is on the COF.

Then here is your chance to be a match director.

--We run a monthly match that consists of 6-7 stages with 140-150 rounds.

--We generally have between 70-75 shooters of varying degrees of experience and ability.

--Depending on the shooter, a 32 round field course may take between 20 sec to over a minute.

--We start at 11am (and cannot start sooner - no debate)

--We need to be done and all the ranges cleared of props and equipment by 4pm (again - no debate)

--It is logistically impossible to score things they way you want them to be scored

What do you, as match director, cut? Fewer stages or fewer shooters?

What do you, as match director, do when experienced people stop coming to your match because it moves too slow?

YOU are now the match director. It's your decision. Go for it.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Graham Smith

[remoandiris]

Then here is your chance to be a match director.

Not saying he wouldn't take up the challenge, but you laid it out there as plain as day. Take over the match and run it your way. If you are unwilling or unable, you take local policy as it comes or shoot elsewhere.

[Sarge]

It happens. Locally we are pretty good at holding off on pasting a target if there is anything questionable that the shooter may want to see. Misses mostly. I'm all for scoring properly and accurately but I'm also all for finishing a match in a reasonable amount of time as well.

[Mitch Harrington]

As a shooter, I want to see a target that has been scored with a miss. It is for this very reason I bring it to the attention of the shooter when I score a target with a miss. It doesn't take that much longer to allow a shooter to look at a Miked target if you are scoring ahead.

[Flexmoney]

I think there are no good reasons for the clipboard RO to be scoring instead of doing his job while the shooter is on the COF.

Then here is your chance to be a match director.

--We run a monthly match that consists of 6-7 stages with 140-150 rounds.

--We generally have between 70-75 shooters of varying degrees of experience and ability.

--Depending on the shooter, a 32 round field course may take between 20 sec to over a minute.

--We start at 11am (and cannot start sooner - no debate)

--We need to be done and all the ranges cleared of props and equipment by 4pm (again - no debate)

--It is logistically impossible to score things they way you want them to be scored

What do you, as match director, cut? Fewer stages or fewer shooters?

What do you, as match director, do when experienced people stop coming to your match because it moves too slow?

YOU are now the match director. It's your decision. Go for it.

I'm your huckleberry.

Design your stages to be shot and scored in 3 minute turns. If you do that, you meet the start and stop times.

[seanc]

I have a buddy watch the scorer if they are taping behind me.

I have only shot a dozen or so USPSA matches, but I have observed at least 1 bad scoring call at every match while just following the scoring ro and taping, sometimes several.

Most commonly I see charlies called on alhpas followed by deltas called on charlies.

Its disheartening to see it happen and it makes you question the overall results, especially if things are close.

[Graham Smith]

Design your stages to be shot and scored in 3 minute turns. If you do that, you meet the start and stop times.

This would actually be an excellent topic for a thread all by itself.

You've been doing this a whole lot longer than I have and there is little doubt you could do that. So far, in the expanse of my whole year of experience, I have not figured out how to do that. I'm just trying to keep things balanced so that the experienced shooters and the novices each have an enjoyable match within the constraints of what we have to work with.

[Poppa Bear]

That would be a valuable thread. Balance can be a hard thing to attain.

[Ace38super]

I think there are no good reasons for the clipboard RO to be scoring instead of doing his job while the shooter is on the COF.

Then here is your chance to be a match director.

--We run a monthly match that consists of 6-7 stages with 140-150 rounds.

--We generally have between 70-75 shooters of varying degrees of experience and ability.

--Depending on the shooter, a 32 round field course may take between 20 sec to over a minute.

--We start at 11am (and cannot start sooner - no debate)

--We need to be done and all the ranges cleared of props and equipment by 4pm (again - no debate)

--It is logistically impossible to score things they way you want them to be scored

What do you, as match director, cut? Fewer stages or fewer shooters?

What do you, as match director, do when experienced people stop coming to your match because it moves too slow?

YOU are now the match director. It's your decision. Go for it.

OK. I ran one of our local clubs as MD for 2 years. I help at much as possible at several other clubs. Without knowing your club layout of bays and how you are set up I could not make a definative reply. I do know that we run 4-5 squads 60 to a record of 94. We start at 10:00 and are usually done by 2:30. I, as MD, would not do a 6 or 7 stage monthly match. 4 or 5 stages with 125 rounds makes a great club match for the shooters and might prevent burn out for the staff that sets up the stages. I just don't see how the RO calling the scores with the shooter adds a significant amount of time if the rest of the squad is helping restore the stage. I guess it's really up to what your shooters want and what your staff is able to provide.

[Graham Smith]

Like many other things in this game, there is no simple one-size-fits-all answer. The first year I shot, I wanted to see every target being scored so I could see exactly where, on what targets, I was messing up. To be honest, there are stages where I would still like to do that. But after shooting one match at a different club where the squad I was on did that, I also quickly saw that this was slowing things down.

It's all a matter of balance.

I'm probably just being overly sensitive about this because of something that happened last year. Never-the-less it might be instructive to spend some time dealing with the whole issue of how to achieve some kind of balance in a match. Rather than continuing to belabor the point in this thread, I'll start another one.

[Poppa Bear]

A lot of this is not so much the size or layout of the stage as much as it is number of stages vs number of squads. 3 squads/ 4 squads/ 5 squads- 5 stages workable as long as squads are not 15+ shooters per squad. Then the numbers get real tight real quick.

6 stages/7 stages/8 stages...... You had better have the range for the entire day because the numbers are already tight just getting through the stages.

[Mitch Harrington]

Im not sure I agree with that. We just ran 84 shooters with 6 squads on 7 stages last Saturday. We were done shooting and had everything put up within 5.5 hours. The key is having ROs/squad moms that keep things moving.

[Poppa Bear]

I am not saying it cannot be done. My point is 10 shooters at 3 minutes a shooter is 1/2 hour per stage. 15 shooters is 45 minutes per stage. 5 stages equals 2 1/2 to 4 hours. 6 stages 3 to 5 hours. 8 stages 4 to 6 hours. Then you still need to tear down and clean up.

That is based on 3 minutes a stage. One stage at 4 minutes and they will all become 4 minute stages because you now need to wait for the stage to clear before the next squad can start.

[Coach]

I am all for scoring while the shooting is going on. It helps keep things moving and can be done accurately. I also think that any mikes should not be pasted until the shooter gets to see them. I have had this happen at major matches and club matches. Signing the score sheet I have a mike and the clip board guy cannot even tell me which target it was on. That is a problem. A little courtsey shown by letting me see the target before it was touched. I don't need to see all the two alphas in order to build my self esteem, but I want to see the issues.

[Poppa Bear]

That is one reason why I tend to go in front of the RO. 2 Alpha, 2 Alpha, Charlie Delta, OK what happened here? Oh, this is where I slid/ fumbled the mag change/ let my weak hand drop to open the door....... I like to try and figure out what went wrong.

[sperman]

It's kind of hard to go in front of the RO when they've scored half the targets before you fired your last shot.

[Skydiver]

It's kind of hard to go in front of the RO when they've scored half the targets before you fired your last shot.

You could "train" them not to start scoring behind you by every few stages or so running back all the way to the start position with your gun still out. Worse that could happen is that the RO shouts "Stop!". If so, you tell the RO "I wasn't finished, yet. That is interference and therefore I should get a reshoot."

Edited July 11, 2012 by Skydiver

[Poppa Bear]

That is mean!!! But effective. :roflol:

[mikegot38]

I think there are no good reasons for the clipboard RO to be scoring instead of doing his job while the shooter is on the COF.

Then here is your chance to be a match director.

--We run a monthly match that consists of 6-7 stages with 140-150 rounds.

--We generally have between 70-75 shooters of varying degrees of experience and ability.

--Depending on the shooter, a 32 round field course may take between 20 sec to over a minute.

--We start at 11am (and cannot start sooner - no debate)

--We need to be done and all the ranges cleared of props and equipment by 4pm (again - no debate)

--It is logistically impossible to score things they way you want them to be scored

What do you, as match director, cut? Fewer stages or fewer shooters?

What do you, as match director, do when experienced people stop coming to your match because it moves too slow?

YOU are now the match director. It's your decision. Go for it.

I may not make it to Sothern Chester a lot but when I do, there is a super mix of stages that appeal to all levels of shooters. Match is very enjoyable and I have never heard a complaint. Don't change a think.

[Blueridge]

In my experience any targets with "mikes" have not been taped until the shooter sees that target. I personally do not generally look at the targets unless there is a "mike", and just listen for the scoring call (two alpha, alpha charlie, etc...). I don't feel like I need to see all the targets and usually I am gathering my brass (one of the advantages of shooting .45 Colt is that no one wants the brass but me. Even at lost brass matches ).

While I understand that it can help a shooters confidence to see where the hits on all the targets were, I don't think that it is always necessary to see all of the targets in a stage to get a feel for how you are shooting.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Blueridge

[Flexmoney]

Mikes hell...I shoot Minor. I want to see where I am putting Charlies and Deltas. I might notice a correctable pattern (like a grip issue...visual patience...follow through...).

Do me a favor, don't score or tape my targets. My squad is rarely the slowest of the match. If it is, it's for some other reason than the shooter walking with the score keeper.

[Biloxi23]

I am way less experienced than most of you guys, and at the Mississippi classic I ws the least experienced ( also the slowest) shooter in my squad. They were all great guys, as were the RO's. They made sure all misses, not shoots, etc were brought to my attention. It was the same for each shooter, and I don't think we ever got behind. I think the only stage that we had a squad waiting on us was right after the classifier stage which went really quickly.

[Coach]

Mikes hell...I shoot Minor. I want to see where I am putting Charlies and Deltas. I might notice a correctable pattern (like a grip issue...visual patience...follow through...).

Do me a favor, don't score or tape my targets. My squad is rarely the slowest of the match. If it is, it's for some other reason than the shooter walking with the score keeper.

Scoring and pasting are not one and the same. Have it scored and let the shooter have a look. Not too difficult.

If you made such a request at our club match we would honor it. Probably tease the living hell out of you and so forth but we would honor such a request.

[Flexmoney]

Scoring and pasting are not one and the same. Have it scored and let the shooter have a look. Not too difficult.

Well, yes and no. Literally, they aren't the same, of course. But, as you mentioned, we have the shooter sign off on their score sheet. I don't want to sign off on 10(+)pts down, if I didn't see them.

Sure, we can get a delegate...if it is properly announced in the actual WSB. We still don't get to see where the hits are trending.

And, what if your delegate doesn't look as close as you would? I have had to correct RO's at Nationals (calling 2 Charlie for me when I had 2 Delta)...and every other level of match. Will every delegate make that correction? My shooting regulars would. Many would. But, would the guy from 3 states over that you just meet on your first stage do that?

Plus, every single one of us has made incorrect calls while scoring shooters targets. Just "mental typos". We need extra sets of eyeballs. We need a check and balance.

[Flexmoney]

While the guy on the clipboard (RO ?) is scoring targets behind the shooter, who is actually RO'ing the shooter? Just the guy on the timer? If so, fail.

And, if there is an extra RO watching the shooter...I KNOW the match would go faster if that man power was available to reset the stage, instead.