kcobean Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I read about "seeing the sights lift" alot here, and I'm curious...can you really follow the front sight with your eyes through a firing cycle? That sucker is moving pretty fast. Or do you basically just re-acquire it at the top of the recoil and track it back down? I'm wondering if I'm not seeing enough as I'm shooting because I'm not re-acquiring the front sight until it's effectively back on the target or at least in the vicinity where I can reset it to the A zone. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanopistol Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) It's not so much seeing the lift of the pistol as it is seeing where it is aiming EXACLTY when the shot goes off. For slower cycling pistols like 1911 .45 you can actually see the lift, and if you can keep your eyes from blinking during the shot you can actually see that big fatty rolling down the range...kinda cool. Edited July 5, 2012 by nanopistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I read about "seeing the sights lift" alot here, and I'm curious...can you really follow the front sight with your eyes through a firing cycle? That sucker is moving pretty fast. Or do you basically just re-acquire it at the top of the recoil and track it back down? I'm wondering if I'm not seeing enough as I'm shooting because I'm not re-acquiring the front sight until it's effectively back on the target or at least in the vicinity where I can reset it to the A zone. Thoughts? I often wonder what specific people see as well. I find it hard to believe that if you are "focused" on the front sight right before the shot breaks (and immediately after) that you can quickly adjust to see the entire motion of the front sight- which is going up as well as backwards. IMO it's most important to see the sight go up as the shot breaks. Of course seeing it come back into the notch has to happen for subsequent shots otherwise we wouldn't get hits right? I also believe it's important to know how your sights are tracking. I know when my fundamentals are working the sight goes straight up and straight down... albeit I don't see the entire motion. Again the important thing here is they come back and you see a good sight pic for your next shot. That's my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Seeing the sights lift means you are aiming all the way through the shot, so you are aiming and pulling the trigger at the same time not aiming then pulling the trigger as two separate acts. Also when you see the sights lift you can be pretty sure that the bullet will hit where the sights were just before the recoil lifted them off target, allowing you to call your shots. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I read about "seeing the sights lift" alot here, and I'm curious...can you really follow the front sight with your eyes through a firing cycle? That sucker is moving pretty fast. Or do you basically just re-acquire it at the top of the recoil and track it back down? I'm wondering if I'm not seeing enough as I'm shooting because I'm not re-acquiring the front sight until it's effectively back on the target or at least in the vicinity where I can reset it to the A zone. Thoughts? I often wonder what specific people see as well. I find it hard to believe that if you are "focused" on the front sight right before the shot breaks (and immediately after) that you can quickly adjust to see the entire motion of the front sight- which is going up as well as backwards. IMO it's most important to see the sight go up as the shot breaks. Of course seeing it come back into the notch has to happen for subsequent shots otherwise we wouldn't get hits right? I also believe it's important to know how your sights are tracking. I know when my fundamentals are working the sight goes straight up and straight down... albeit I don't see the entire motion. Again the important thing here is they come back and you see a good sight pic for your next shot. That's my 2 cents. I'm no expert,just a very low B high C depending on division, but, I don,t track the sight either (when I actually see it at all) what I see is the front sight jump up from the spot I was aiming at, the next thing I see is the slide blocking the view of the point I am aiming at then the slide disappears and I can see the front sight again, hopefully back on the same point I was aiming at. it tends to come to me more in flickering still pictures and less like a movie. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 For me you just have to see what you need to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuke8401 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 For me "seeing the sights life" is the image I see as the shot breaks as if I just took a picture of the sights and target with the trigger being the shutter release. When in the zone and everything is going slow, you have the time to evaluate the shot/sight picture and decide if the shot was good or not before the sights come back on target. Also when in the zone, you can see whatever you want to and what I care about is the sight picture when the shot breaks and when the front sight returns to the target/next target. I don't think "seeing the sights lift" means following the front sight through the recoil cycle, it just means seeing it as the shot breaks and again when it returns to the target. So to answer your question; while I might have a front sight focus, I don't follow it, I keep my eyes on the target and the front sight stays in my peripheral vision during the cycle. But I suck so my opinion is worth what you paid for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerPast Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I have found that on longer shots, it is a bit easier to see the front sight lift and come back to target for the next shot. The intense concentration on the front sight for such shots emphasizes that the front sight really does rise and fall back. If I could speed up my eyes to see that same thing happen at a more rapid pace, there would be a lot more tight groups on those hoser arrays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Ah yes...the old, "can you really see that fast" question. Many swear it is impossible. That might be why they can't seem to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcobean Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 Ah yes...the old, "can you really see that fast" question. Many swear it is impossible. That might be why they can't seem to do it. I'm astounded by the skill of some of the people in this sport and frequently find myself going "how in the world do they do that?" I was genuinely curious if seeing the sights lift (in the literal sense) is something they're doing, because I certainly can't right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 A lot of folks talk about seeing the front post lift, tracking it all the way up, and then back down in the notch. I've tried it that way and know for certain that it's possible to do. I don't however see an advantage to that. I watch the sight lift from between the rear notch and the next thing I'm fully aware of is its return to alignment and settling there, until the next one breaks. I observe the "blacking out" of that picture by the slide from time to time, but I'm typically just zoned in on that "spot" and only perceive lift and settle, lift and settle, lift and settle. I've yet to outrun my eyes with trigger press, and while I may not have the visual patience to allow for the proper settle, I'm DEFINITELY seeing the front post clearly with each shot-- .15 splits and all (which are as fast as I can physically muster, I've found, with my Production gun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Ah yes...the old, "can you really see that fast" question. Many swear it is impossible. That might be why they can't seem to do it. I wish I could see what you must be seeing. For now... I'll keep trying. Although... I do find it strange that I'm having trouble seeing things right in front of me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 First you need to determine if you don't see the sights though out the cycle because your eyes are closed, or because your brain doesn't record it. Loud sharp recoil can stun your system and limit or shut down your senses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czfan Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Boy, I also have a problem with this. Is there a drill specific for this, or is it done by shooting at the berm and focusing on the front sight? If it is shooting at the berm, can someone describe please what we should try to see so that we will recognize this and focus on that? My problem is that I am not exactly sure what to specifically look for. I apologize in advance for the super newbie question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 There is the aspect of blinking...hard to see when the eyes are closed...and there is also the fact that it is easy to get distracted while looking for something else. Shots into the berm, with no aiming point and no expectations or thoughts on hitting a target can help[ remove some of the distractions. One must still let their mind go and forget what they think they know and just let themselves see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 One technique is to point the gun into the side of the berm. Focus on the front sight and pull the trigger as fast as you can for ten shots. This was first recommended to me by Matt Burkett. He seems to know a little about training shooters. I think the idea of shooting as fast as you can, takes your conscious mind out of the equation. it then frees you to actually see what is happening. Once your begin to recognize your sights movement in this drill, you begin to see aspects of the movement in your regular shooting drills. I noticed when I started have loads in the 165 PF range, I was noticing the slide movement also. Do the drill a few times at the beginning of each practice session and you will be training your mind to see what you need to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 First you need to determine if you don't see the sights though out the cycle because your eyes are closed, or because your brain doesn't record it. Loud sharp recoil can stun your system and limit or shut down your senses Went to the range today and played with this stuff for a while. I double plugged as well. I know I'm blinking occasionally right after the shot during SLOW long distance fire for some reason. When I'm shooting faster I don't seem to be blinking- although I can't be 100% sure. I've watched some vids in the past and I can't see my eyes blinking. I shot a bunch into the berm with my non dominant eye closed and both eyes open. When not completely focused on the front sight I can see the sight rise and the slide going up as well. I seemed to see a little more of the slide with both eyes open. Much of the time I can't follow the sights in its entirety and I don't think it's from blinking.. but who knows. My brain is sometimes slow..... and I feel like I'm clueless on this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Ah yes...the old, "can you really see that fast" question. Many swear it is impossible. That might be why they can't seem to do it. Very Profound. That statement can apply to so many things. On a related note: Shoot several hundred rounds through a .22 1911. With the lack of violent recoil, it's rather easy to see the sights lift and return (or not). After that it's about getting accustomed to the excitement of the more powerful calibers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 A lot of it depends on where you are looking. While working dot drills the other day I was seeing the dot lift and settle but it didn't seem to rise very high, the assumption would be that the gun did not lift that much. I was very focused on the point I was shooting at, 3" square dot @ 15m, and on some shots I was so focused on that spot that I could see the bullet impact as the sight lifted. I wasn't looking for it but could see it appear as the dot lifted away. Again it seemed like the dot did not lift that much. I moved on to shoot some full targets @ 10m, basically an El Prez type drill. On the first couple of runs I was surprised at how high the dot seemed to lift and how it tracked on target. On top of that my hits were not great, mostly C's. Which is weird after doing a precision drill like the dot drill. I realized that I was just blasting at brown, I was not focused on the center of the A zone like I should have been. The next few runs we're all A's and now the dot did not seem to be lifting as high before returning. Now when I say the dot seemed to lift high it was not leaving the target, it was tracking from the middle of the target almost to the top. It really wasnt a big movement but it seemed so after what I had seen previously. Now you might put all that together and draw te conclusion that I was holding the gun harder on the hard or more focused shots than on the full targets, but if anything it was the opposite. So why did the dot appear to move more when I was blasting at brown? Think of it this way, when you focus on a particular spot your vision narrows and you have a small focal point. When the sight lifts it leaves this focal zone and when it returns it reappears, giving the illusion that it only rose and fell a small amount, in reality it tracked as it always does, but you only see the part where it's in your focal zone. When shooting at a full target, or perhaps a backstop where you have no aiming point and your focal area opens up you can see the sight through it's whole arc. Now is this a big deal? No, as long as you stay with the sight to the point where you can accurately call your shot, then you've seen enough. When learning to return the gun and wanting to see how the gun tracks in recoil it can be helpful to see the whole movement but I don't think it's nessessary when shooting a typical drill or stage. See what you need to see for the given shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick88 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Aim once shoot twice :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Think of it this way, when you focus on a particular spot your vision narrows and you have a small focal point. When the sight lifts it leaves this focal zone and when it returns it reappears, giving the illusion that it only rose and fell a small amount, in reality it tracked as it always does, but you only see the part where it's in your focal zone. When shooting at a full target, or perhaps a backstop where you have no aiming point and your focal area opens up you can see the sight through it's whole arc. Now is this a big deal? No, as long as you stay with the sight to the point where you can accurately call your shot, then you've seen enough. When learning to return the gun and wanting to see how the gun tracks in recoil it can be helpful to see the whole movement but I don't think it's nessessary when shooting a typical drill or stage. See what you need to see for the given shot. Now Pat- this really makes sense to me, nice! I tried to articulate that in one of my earlier posts but didn't do so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I recently discovered that I had my hat pulled down too low, and the my head is also tilted down. I've been working on those two things and can see a lot more of the sight during recoil than I used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Ah yes...the old, "can you really see that fast" question. Many swear it is impossible. That might be why they can't seem to do it. Thanks to you Kyle, I'm now seeing what I needed and have to see And of course I can't do it without an added grip pressure on my weak hand So for me, it's vision and grip- check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 One thing I'm learning is that whenever an experienced and higher level shooter says he sees something, even though it seems impossible to me that he could be seeing that every shot with as quick as he's shooting, I should take him at his word. It's amazing how much you can do for each shot with it looking to an observer like you're just pointing and pulling the trigger. I can't see everything people are telling me I should be seeing, but I can see alot more right now than I could when I was first told what I should be seeing. Right now I'm not seeing the sight lift when a shot breaks - it's like I can only see it while it's in the rear notch, it disappears, then it reappears in the rear notch again. I expect I'll eventually be able to see it move up out of the rear notch if I run drills trying to figure out how to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswitt99 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I never saw the sight lift until someone told me to shoot the bearm and just focus on watching it to see what it was doing. Now, I do see my sites, but more so in the return position than tracking up and down. The hard part for me is going back and forth on focus. When I start a stage I seem to really focus on targets, and when that happens I don't see the sites doing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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