Tight-Group and .45 is Nasty...

[Steve D.]

Before this weekend's range time my new Pro-Chrono Digital arrived to be used with my first loadings of TG and 200g. H-XTP's. Loade 50 at 5.0-5.1 and 50 at 5.4-5.5. A few things I noticed, some good and some bad.. (off topic but that Pro-Chrony is just flawless!)

1.) This powder cetainly is cleaner-burning than the W231, and more-so still, than the Bullseye I have been using for the last few-thousand rnds. It almost looked like a "heat-coloring" effect on the side of the ejected casings rather than the carbon from W231 (or soot for Bullseye).

2.) It is Very consistent with SD's of 13-15 fps for the 4 strings (2 for each charge-weight) I clocked. These strings were 16-20 rnds each.

3.) It is like a "Nasty Dry-Hack Cough" in Recoil Impulse / Gun-Feel compared to the old-fashioned W231 & Bullseye Loads! The heavier 5.4-5.5 load was really Harsh and Rambunctious and even the light 5.0-5.1 was too snappy by a long shot. Bullet speeds were right where they should have been according to the H-Manual of 845 for Light and 891 for Hi charges.

This was observed through a full-sized H&K USP which has been the softest-shooting .45 I have ever fired. I just think of how rotten this powder must be through a 1911..

I will NOT be using this stuff for .45 any more. I hope it shines in the 9mm (what I actually bought it for) as many have written here before.

Another Problem: My USP has NEVER choked on Any Ammo Before yesterday. Many thousands of every description down the pipe on this machine and NEVER a failure or jam.. I loaded all 100 rnds. of 200 gr. XTP to 1.235 OAL and I had 4 F-T-Feed Jams where the cartridge wedged in the final stage of chambering. 5-6 others required a little "forward assist" into battery. Do you think the OAL of 1.235 was that bad if the manual called for 1.230 for this load?...I would not think 5-Thousandths would do jack..?

I can't help but suspect that this harsh recoil characteristic was somehow screwing-up the "timing" of the gun's cycle... What do you Gurus think?

[RammerJammer]

I was really hoping this thread would have a lot of responses. I have my first batch of TG in the mail. I will be loading .40 with it but I imagine if it is this nasty it will be across the board. Anything?

[Babaganoosh]

I've used it in 9 40 and 45. I like it. I like the quick recoil impulse. Its fast so its over quickly and your front sight is back in the notch quicker too.

I've only loaded a thousand of 45 but I've loaded over 15k of 9 and 40. The powder is economical and readily available. Very good standard deviation and only a little bit temp sensitive.

The only thing I dont like is it burns hot as all hell.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Babaganoosh

[steel1212]

I haven't shot a lot of it in .45 but I'm on about 16 pounds of it for 9mm and .40. Absolutely love the stuff!

[HoMiE]

The only thing I dont like is its burns hot as all hell.

Although W231 may be dirty, it wipes away. TG I would have to scrub with a little cleaner and it is definitely hotter and just with a full mag the barrel is smoking hot.

[twodownzero]

OP: have you compared the bore axis of the USP to a 1911? Surely you must be joking if you think that a USP, which is lighter in weight and has a higher bore axis than a 1911 has less felt recoil. We must all be getting it wrong in this sport, shooting our steel guns with high grips, if a USP has a softer recoil impulse.

I do not use TG but many of my friends do, and their experience is absolutely nothing like yours.

The manual does not "call" for a length for a load. It lists the minimum safe length that the data published in it can be loaded at. Your gun's chamber and magazine determines the length of your ammo.

I think you need to sit down with a reloading manual and seriously review your loading practices before you even load one more round. You could get seriously hurt if you don't know what you're doing.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "harsh" recoil and poor feeding were caused by bullet setback and extreme pressures, given the other things you've complained about.

[Steve D.]

In reply to TWODOWNZERO:

I stand by my impression / knowledge that a full-sized USP is a much softer-shooting gun than a 1911 with "factory" loads in each. I am a firm believer that the double-spring on the guide rod does a Hell of a good job.

I am expecting the TG to perform well with 9mm but now I know why it is not considered a real big powder for .45. I am really eager to see how the Clays goes with this cartridge because it sound like it is super popular.

With respect to the note of caution that I "sit down with a manual and be real careful or I might hurt myself"....please spare me the "helpful advice" there.

My rounds are extremely uniform in charge and dimentions as evidenced by the very small SD numbers that closely match the published velocity spec. per charge-weight. I am also not experiencing any more set-back than 1-3 Thousanths after stacking a magazine and racking them quickly thru the gun 3-4 times to test. I actually noticed where the "edge" of the hollow-point in one of the XTP jams had been chewed or cought, but even that did not cause any noticable set-back.

I am the biggest "uniformity Geek" you could ever meet. I don't mind admitting that I only turn out 100-150 rnds an Hour because so much intermittent charge weighing (on a $110.00 digital scale) and frequent caliper-checking of OAL and Crimp Dimention takes place during a couple-hour session. I also don't proceed to load until my measure is consitntly throwing "at weight or +.1 / -.1" for 20 charges in a row.

It just struck me as odd when the last couple thousand made up of Hornady semi-wad-cutters, Berry's Semi-WC's and Berry's 230 RN's all ran without a single hitch and likewise all manner of factory ammo over the years.

As a final step I drop all my ammo into a Dillon Chamber Gage as I fill the ammo trays. Couple this routine with Ultra-Sonically cleaned brass after it has been de-primed and you should have some pretty hi-quality stuff.

The "other things you've described" would probably have been a better way of stating "things you've complained about".

There are some great Gurus here that have many more years of experience in reloading (and serious shooting) than myself and that is why I turn to this forum for insightful, constructive and experienced advice.

[twodownzero]

I'm not going to further comment on the USP discussion as it is off topic, but I suspect that over time, your view will change on that.

Clays is what I use as do many others, but there's no reason why TG can't perform for the application you're using it for.

Low SDs and consistent ammo is primarily a function of higher pressures and more consistent combustion, not some anal reloading process. That's not to say that consistent ammo doesn't also require consistent powder charges, but powders perform best when loaded at higher pressures for more consistent combustion. Think of it similarly to using the proper octane for the compression ratio of your engine.

I find it very hard to believe that you loaded all those bullets to book minimum length and they all fed properly in your gun. If that's in fact true, you've been lucky for a very long time. I suspect that loading them to a more fitting length for your gun will result in more reliable and consistent feeding and also reduce the risk of overpressure, whether by bullet setback or minor overcharge.

[RammerJammer]

I currently use Unique and end the day with arms covered in little flecks of powder that get stuck in my fur. TG seems to be very popular and the price can't be beat. I am going to try it to launch some 180gr cast .40 bullets and hope for the best.

[Babaganoosh]

I currently use Unique and end the day with arms covered in little flecks of powder that get stuck in my fur. TG seems to be very popular and the price can't be beat. I am going to try it to launch some 180gr cast .40 bullets and hope for the best.

TG is very smokey when used with lead bullets

[superdude]

Another Problem: My USP has NEVER choked on Any Ammo Before yesterday. Many thousands of every description down the pipe on this machine and NEVER a failure or jam.. I loaded all 100 rnds. of 200 gr. XTP to 1.235 OAL and I had 4 F-T-Feed Jams where the cartridge wedged in the final stage of chambering. 5-6 others required a little "forward assist" into battery. Do you think the OAL of 1.235 was that bad if the manual called for 1.230 for this load?...I would not think 5-Thousandths would do jack..?

I can't help but suspect that this harsh recoil characteristic was somehow screwing-up the "timing" of the gun's cycle... What do you Gurus think?

this sounds like the OAL is too long for your chamber. have you checked this bullet at your stated OAL in your barrel's chamber to make sure it fits without engaging the riflings? i.e. the "plunk" and "rotation" check?

[mcracco]

I tried TiteGroup back when I was looking for a powder for 9 & 40. It was by far the most unpleasant to shoot. TiteGroup may yield tight groups but there are other powders that will do the same with out the snap.

Oh, Clays was a no-brainer in the 45.

Edited July 4, 2012 by mcracco

[osageid]

I have loaded thousands of rounds of titegroup in 45acp, it cycles my HK45 and Mark23 without a single hiccup in either gun. My son has shot thousands through his Kimber without jams as well.

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[osageid]

This is a video of Mark23 , with titegroup. Notice how well the gun is cycling? Anyone will tell you how massive this gun is. For me titegroup has been a very good performer!

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk63/osageid/?action=view&current=0732d719.mp4

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[RePete]

I've loaded about 14lbs of TG now in 38Sp, 40S&W, and 45ACP without issue but I use Unique in the 9mm because I prefer the recoil impulse it produces.

TG is my go to powder except 9mm.

[Merlin Orr]

I used TG for years - until I found Solo 1000.

Edit to add.... For 9mm and .40. In my eyes there is still nothing better than Clays for .45.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Merlin Orr

[roostershooter]

I also like Titegroup for everything but 9mm. In 9 it produces an impulse more like a 40S&W load. I don't like it at all in 9mm.

[Steve D.]

Really Interesting commentary regarding this powder and peoples Likes & Dis-Likes of it.

I have never shot any of these 200 XTP's throught this gun before so I had better try to tailor it to the chamber as one fellow mentioned with the "Plunk & Twist". I drop them all in the Dillon gage but not in the gun's chamber. Strangely though, I was able to quickly rack the slide through a full magazine of these reloads 3-4 times without any hang-up or setback and I definitely didn't see any rifling imprints in the nose of the bullets.

OSAGEID: What bullet have you been loading on top of that TG and what have you found to be a good OAL for your USP and Mk23? I am really curious. I'm at work so I can't view the video right now but I will definitely check that out when I get home. Thanks

Any helpful suggestions welcome.

I had better get something squared away because I have 600 185 gr. XTP's from the Hornady program that are waiting to be seated..

Thanks

[gigamortis]

Clays is definitely a winner for the softest shooter in .45. It will smoke some with naked lead, but not as much as Titegroup would. My go to powder for cast lead .45 is WST. It is just barely snappier than Clays, but the smoke is almost non-existent due to it being a cooler burning single base powder. WST is a finer grain powder than Clays, so it meters more consistently than the big flakes of Clays will.

Titegroup burns HOT, but this hot burn temp is why it burns so consistently in cases that have a lot of excess case volume. This extra heat makes sure all the powder gets burnt at the same rate, no matter how the powder is laying in the case. I don't know of any other powder that provides such low extreme spreads and standard deviations in cases with a lot of left over volume like .45, .38spl, and .357MAG. Titegroup is pretty friendly on pressure at the top of the load charts, too. Plus, you can find Titegroup just about anywhere. Titegroup meters exceptionally well due to its small grain size.

I use Tightgroup in 9mm behind 135gr Bayous. I don't notice any smoke, either. 925fps is needed for minor, and my 5 shot average is just 938fps. Most folks would be rather nervous about being this close to the minor power floor, but Titegroup has a consistency you can set your watch by and I have always made power factor every time my loads were checked.

[osageid]

Really Interesting commentary regarding this powder and peoples Likes & Dis-Likes of it.

I have never shot any of these 200 XTP's throught this gun before so I had better try to tailor it to the chamber as one fellow mentioned with the "Plunk & Twist". I drop them all in the Dillon gage but not in the gun's chamber. Strangely though, I was able to quickly rack the slide through a full magazine of these reloads 3-4 times without any hang-up or setback and I definitely didn't see any rifling imprints in the nose of the bullets.

OSAGEID: What bullet have you been loading on top of that TG and what have you found to be a good OAL for your USP and Mk23? I am really curious. I'm at work so I can't view the video right now but I will definitely check that out when I get home. Thanks

Any helpful suggestions welcome.

I had better get something squared away because I have 600 185 gr. XTP's from the Hornady program that are waiting to be seated..

Thanks

Sorry been working , been loading 230 plated Ranier plus 4.6 grain TG at mainly 1.25 OAL

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[Bob DuBois]

I use TG in 40S@W 175gn lead loads loaded long and 9mm minor with lighter bullets but prefer Clays in 45 ACP. Soft shooting, clean and accurate hard to beat.

Solo 1000 works fine in 9mm minor especially with heaver bullets. Solo is heat sensitive slows when the temps rise can be a pain on hot humid days in the South.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: 5 grains of Tite Group is alot for a 200 grain bullet unless you have a very slow barrel? I have used 4.3grains of TG for my 200 grain Precision Moly's in a 1911. Clays is the powder for 45. It shoots soft and very clean. Tite Group works great for 40 and 9mm with lighter bullets. It is more accurate than N320 and half the cost with the same powder measure for both. My 165 grain loads for my 40 6" is 5.1 grains of TG or N320. The groups are amazing with TG and not so much for N320. Buy some Clays and enjoy. Thanks, Eric

[Steve D.]

Some good input there Aircooled6Racer. (Is that a Porsche flat-6 by any chance?)

I have l lb. of Clays sitting on the bench and ready for the next .45 loading experiment. I have a pile of 185 gr. XTP's and I will try to keep the recommended OAL right at the mark to see if the ocasional feeding issue I had with the 200's goes away.

The TG will be used to make 9mm ammo from now on...

Thanks for your comments

[lpspinner]

I just wanted to jump on the Titegroup band wagon here and let you know that I love this stuff. I mainly switched to TG because of all the praises here. I use it for 9mm Mak, 9mm, 40, 45 and 45LC.

In my experience with my 1911, XD Tactical and Glock 21SF, it shoots wonderfully. I'm anal like you in reloading, constantly checking my powder drops, but when it comes to cleaning my guns, I'm the complete opposite..

I like the fact that TG burns thoroughly and doesn't leave me any powder residue in the barrel. I'll just run a few passes with a boresnake and that's that for the barrel. As for the smut, a silicon cleaning cloth wipes them clean.

As for Clays, my impression is that the slide is going in slow motion compared to the snappiness of TG. Maybe it's just my preference for the speediness.

For my .45, I have only loaded Precision Bullets 200gr moly's and Bear Creek 230gr RN moly's. Yes they are smokey. I then use Zero, MG and Xtreme 230 gr RN. My favorite is the Zero's. All I can say is that TG is more accurate then I am.

[md66948]

I am concerned about heat with tite-group when using a suppressor. I have an HK UMP Clone with a Gemtech UMP Suppressor. I know I am not shooting full auto but I am worried about heat build up since I do go through a lot of rounds in a short period of time.

Any one here use tite-group with a suppressor?

Dane