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What causes this?


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I've been trying to figure out which ammo my AR-15 likes and which ammo my Remington 700P (.223) likes. I'm hoping either Winchester Q3131A or Federal "Lake City".

First target is Q3131A at ~250-something (yards / meters) through the Armalite M15A4 last Sunday. Second target is Q3131A at ~300-something (yards / meters) with the Remington 700P.

The groups with Federal look nothing like this. Is this pattern "typical" of something? Finger position on the trigger? Wind?

07-18-04-1.jpg

07-25-04-5.jpg

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I think we need more info:

Have you only shot 11 rounds of the Q3131? What do the other groups look like? If not, shoot a few more groups a little closer that 250/300.

If these are truly "strung out" - shots go in sequence - start left and go right or start righ and go left, then I'm inclined to look at barrel heating. I know, strange coincidnce that both rifles would behave so similarly, but, you never know.

What is the time interval between shots (did the barrel cool down or continue to heat)?

If they don't string (random placement along that line), then I'm looking at wind.

What were the wind conditions when these groups were shot?

What do the Federal groups look like?

Give us the scoop!

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It was windy both days -- especially windy on 7/18.

The "strings" roughly correspond with the direction of the wind on those days.

I was generally alternating between "X" (usually 10) rounds of XM193 and 10rds of Q3131A.

The Federal groups look more like "patterns" -- some high, some low, some left, some right...sort of a shotgun effect. They are generally in the same area of the target (they're left of the bull when the Q3131A is left, right of the bull when the Q3131A string is right).

I didn't shoot much Q3131A at distance on 7/18 because of the funky-looking group.

Barrel heating & cheek-weld never ever occurred to me. That's what makes this forum so great.

Now that I'm saying it "out loud", I'm reminded of some gun / ammo reviews where a particular load didn't perform well if it followed another load -- something about barrel leading / copper-fouling.

Could it be something like that?

Mike

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Now that I'm saying it "out loud", I'm reminded of some gun / ammo reviews where a particular load didn't perform well if it followed another load -- something about barrel leading / copper-fouling. 

When I am testing differnet loads I bring along the BoreSnake and run it down the barrel between loads. Not so much that I am worried about fouling from one or the other but if I am going to compare accuracy or velocity between loads, then the gun should be in the same condition at the start for each one.

Also,I try the initial tests at 100 yds. If I cant get 3-5 shots inside 1" at 100 then at 200 they will not magically get togeather.

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Wow! I don't usually check this forum. There can be a bunch of different things from shooter to gear for this one. Looks like: a) Parallax issues B) mirage fooling you c) shooting during different winds

Solutions for these are: a) Check your parallax setting. Make sure your cheekweld is consistent as someone already mentioned (your eye needs to be in the same place all the time, and make sure you are getting a full sight picture).

B) Watch the mirage - it can make the target appear to be in a different place

c) Shoot only when the wind is the same. Have your spotter call wind for you, using a meter.

Most of all, testing a load on a windy day just doesn't work too well. Wind is great for practice - I like shooting in wind, but I don't work up loads in wind. Get up early - there usually isn't any wind at dawn.

There is SO much more...

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Using flags does wonders. If you don't want to buy a set, flagman's tape on a stick is better than nothing. Remember the wind closer to you has more effect than wind at the target, etc. I was at a match once where the wind was switching in three or four different directions between gun and targets, and then went almost straight up at target distance. Unusual, to say the least.

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  • 3 months later...
  • 4 months later...
I've been trying to figure out which ammo my AR-15 likes and which ammo my Remington 700P (.223) likes.  I'm hoping either Winchester Q3131A or Federal "Lake City".

First target is Q3131A at ~250-something (yards / meters) through the Armalite M15A4 last Sunday.  Second target is Q3131A at ~300-something (yards / meters) with the Remington 700P.

The groups with Federal look nothing like this.  Is this pattern "typical" of something?  Finger position on the trigger?  Wind? 

07-18-04-1.jpg

07-25-04-5.jpg

Bad Shooting. Nah that was too easy. Wind. At 100 yards looks like at your widest your over 10 clicks out.

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  • 10 months later...
Both barrels are gone.

I had the M15A4 barrel replaced with a JP & free-float tube.

The 700P in 223 Remington was transformed into a 260 Remington with a Lilja barrel.

Mike

So, still have the same problems?

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