Far and Near par times

[TMC]

Ok, here's my .02

I'm not really a fan of the stage and not just because I took a 10 second overtime penalty that cost me the 3 places (I'm with John and lowering it to 5).

When I practice for the ICORE I usually focus only on Standards because in my mind it is THE match and it's one of the things I dislike most. If I'm out at the range and I don't shoot Standards I feel I've wasted my practice time.

Its the stage that can make or break you. Look at Rich, finished behind Jerry by less than 7 seconds, won 6 stages and tied on another but Jerry shot a 6 and Rich a 19. Last year they were less than 2 seconds apart on Stadards.

The issue is with 4 par times is if you have a small hickup that may only cost you 2-3 seconds on any other stage can totaly ruin the whole match. It wouldn't be as bad if the match was scored like USPSA Time-Plus rather than total time as that would allow you the chance of getting some of it back and maybe saving your match. (Time-Plus has every stage worth 100 points, lowest time wins the stage and every body else gets a percentage of the 100 points based on the percentage they shot of the low time).

Not allowing regular LMR prep between stings makes it even worse. I would like to make sure my front sight isn't bent (or dot lens isn't smudged) and that my reload moon will still fall in without issue.

I think removing the par time keeps the challenge and removes it as the make or break stage for the match.

[MHicks]

The par times do make it difficult, especially for the newer, and slower shooters. Some new shooters just never seem to try to shoot faster, even on targets that are pretty close. Some are pretty accurate, but don't speed up when they have a chance. The par times force them to speed up and try to get more or all of their shots off within the par time. I think some of them learn that they can speed up (reloading and shooting) and still get "A" hits on a lot of the targets. They might never discover this if they hadn't shot the strings with par times. This can carry over to the rest of the stages where they have learned that they can shoot faster on a percentage of the targets and still get good hits.

I'm sure that some are discouraged after shooting the standards, but some also look at it as a real measurable goal to work on. Or it could be tweaked as John Bakagis mentioned, reduce the overtime penalty to 5 seconds.

Mark

[underlug]

Well here is my two cents!

I was one of the people against changing the Standards for a long time, but one I shot it with no par time and blacked out X's I was sold on the idea.

I think no par times makes it better for everyone, If you fumbel a reload at the 10 or 3 your match is not over.

I feel a non par time Standards is better for the newer shooters and not so intimidating!

For the shooters that want to try and beat the former par times and save time for more X's where their stronger so be it.

If they keep Par times, I will have to finally put in a request to have the Overtime penalty change from a

(Match killer)10 seconds to 5 Like the rest of the penalties in Icore.

Thanks

John

I think the par times should be kept because "Our sport combines elements of the Bianchi Cup, IPSC, and the Steel Challenge into demanding competition exclusively for revolvers" and the Far and Near Standards with the par times is the only Bianchi type stage we shoot.

The reduction in overtime penalties is welcome if applied per shot and some creativity in mitigating the stage's effect on the final match score should be explored

Edited June 6, 2012 by underlug

[Carmoney]

Interesting discussion.

I have a problem with par time stages in general, because I think they introduce an arbritary luck factor into the mix. If your shot happens to go off at +.30, you're fine.....if it goes off at +.31, you're penalized. And with ICORE scoring, it really hurts to catch one of those penalties.

Particularly now that some of the top contenders are running so close to each other, do we really want to see Jerry or John dethroned (or re-throned, for that matter!) because of some bullcrap "gotcha" penalty like that?

This applies not just with the standards, but any stage where par time is used.

If Far and Near with par times is kept, it would be much better to have turning targets with a visual start, like they have at Bianchi and the standards stage at the Single Stack Nats. That would maintain the time pressure but eliminate the overtime penalties, and the luck factor that is inherent in them.

Of course, mechanical turners aren't cheap. But the Hogues could probably swing it!

[pyrrhic3gun]

Maybe it would be more productive to ask what the organizers wish to accomplish with this stage.

If it is to "crush the weak" then it seems to be working.

If they wish to be somehow more inclusive (since it is in Commiefornia), then I suggest looking at how many people had overtime penalties and by how much time (if that info is available), then alter the par time to allow a bigger percentage of successful shooters on the stage.

It doesn't have to be 100%, just whatever is deemed to be "acceptable".

Additionally, I agree the reduction of the 10 second penalty would seem to make the stage less of a match destroyer.

[underlug]

Interesting discussion.

I have a problem with par time stages in general, because I think they introduce an arbritary luck factor into the mix. If your shot happens to go off at +.30, you're fine.....if it goes off at +.31, you're penalized. And with ICORE scoring, it really hurts to catch one of those penalties.

Particularly now that some of the top contenders are running so close to each other, do we really want to see Jerry or John dethroned (or re-throned, for that matter!) because of some bullcrap "gotcha" penalty like that?

This applies not just with the standards, but any stage where par time is used.

I

If Far and Near with par times is kept, it would be much better to have turning targets with a visual start, like they have at Bianchi and the standards stage at the Single Stack Nats. That would maintain the time pressure but eliminate the overtime penalties, and the luck factor that is inherent in them.

Of course, mechanical turners aren't cheap. But the Hogues could probably swing it!

I disagree with "arbitrary", "luck", and "bullcrap penalty" unless you think Bianchi Cup shooting is that. Getting your shots off in time is a skill

If an eminent competitor is "dethroned" by the application of the rules applied to everyone,which hasn't happened yet, well, he just lost...period

Turners would be wonderful.

Let's not turn the IRC into a USPSA match with under powered revolvers even if some think it would benefit them competitively

[pskys2]

The usual penalty for any OT shot on a Par Time Stage is only the highest value of a single shot.

So the value of a single shot is 10 seconds in the far and near? 1 Second would be closer I'd think.

Turning Targets are the only way to go, would also add a bit more of a cool factor.

If you want to say you're including Bianchi Cup in the Match Matrix then do it as at the Cup.

Edited June 7, 2012 by pskys2

[David Olhasso]

Get rid of the par times. Just my humble opinion.

[jhgtyre]

The overtime penalty is against the rules. Plain and simple. Have the penalty follow the rules. You cannot just arbitrarily decide that on THIS stage the rules are different.

-ld

[TMC]

I disagree with "arbitrary", "luck", and "bullcrap penalty" unless you think Bianchi Cup shooting is that. Getting your shots off in time is a skill

In Bianchi, when the time is up there is nothing to shoot except on The Plates.

Interesting discussion.

I have a problem with par time stages in general, because I think they introduce an arbritary luck factor into the mix. If your shot happens to go off at +.30, you're fine.....if it goes off at +.31, you're penalized. And with ICORE scoring, it really hurts to catch one of those penalties.

Amen, my last shot was at 10:31!

Edited June 7, 2012 by TMC

[Ty Hamby]

I was discussing this thread with my wife. She reminded me of the times coming home from shooting the F&N having nothing nice to say. She was reminding me how I told other members "this is it, I am no longer having fun". She reminded me of the time I told the Club President at an IDPA match that I was done with ICORE.

Luckily for me the club president convinced my IDPA shooting wife to come out and borrow his gun and shoot an ICORE match. She bought that gun 2 weeks later. A couple of years later we both enjoy shooting ICORE and the F&N is just something we practice regularly knowing we will need to shoot it 3-4 times a year. This year was her first IRC. We both had a great time.

I was fairly familiar with the standard prior to this year’s par time. I can’t imagine being new to ICORE having to shoot par times on that stage. I cannot speak for the other ICORE newbie’s, but I can tell you I was almost one that gave up on ICORE because the F&N seemed silly and out of place for such a match.

[cavallino]

Turning targets is the way to go. Last years Australian Regionals we ran turning targets for Standards and eliminated the overtime penalties as there was no target to shoot at after time. The problem it did introduce however was the scoring of skid shots on partialy turned targets. But the cool and slightly intimidating factor was when we had 8 shooters in a line at the 10 and 3 yard lines all firing at once, also quickened up the stage by running all 8 shooters at once.

[seancswife]

Turning targets is the way to go. Last years Australian Regionals we ran turning targets for Standards and eliminated the overtime penalties as there was no target to shoot at after time. The problem it did introduce however was the scoring of skid shots on partialy turned targets. But the cool and slightly intimidating factor was when we had 8 shooters in a line at the 10 and 3 yard lines all firing at once, also quickened up the stage by running all 8 shooters at once.

Turners would be *very* cool.

[one-gun]

This is a tough one. For me, the idea of changing standards feels like moving the free throw line closer (I sucked at free throws) or making the cup bigger in golf (seriously, it should be bigger.) And I did shoot it faster last year without the par times. But so did everyone else I think. And I've had to swallowed an overtime shot, and it hurt all the way down, but it just seems to me that this is a big match, it should be hard, and therefore continue to be a consistent yard stick with which you measure people's performance and reward those that spend more time at the range and repeatedly dumping dummy rounds on their garage floor. (And I'll just keep hitting that stupid white ball toward that impossibly tiny cup.)

I do think making the overtime shot from 10 to 5 would be good. I always just accepted it. But if, by design of the stage, we are pushing the limit to make shots by par, maybe less of a sting would allow/encourage people to push more. And on the taking a sight picture from each line, I suspect that was to help save time. I get that b/c those are two (and three) really hard working r/o's that work that stage every year. This year at lunch on sat, with their OK, I helped put up fresh targets for them so they could go grab a bite given they had already worked well into the time everyone else was eating bbq. But there may be other ways to keep the stage running smoothly without taking the sight picture away and having the nasty procedurals for forgeting what I believe is a new rule.

Thanks for counting my 2 cents. Now I can go back to looking forward to next year's IRC.

[jmax]

A lot of interesting discussion and I have four points.

First if you want to change the penalties for F&N please go to the ICORE web site, down load the form for rule changes and submit it to Jeff N so it can be presented to the new BOD.

Second we need a Match Director for next years IRC and that individual has a great deal to say about what the stages are and how the match would be conducted. Please send me your resume including major match experience and any RO training/experience that you have plus any stages that you have designed. Go to the ICORE web site, navigate to the contact us and click in the chairman and send me your proposals. I will take any and all proposals to the BOB. That way you can be satisfied with F&N if you like open times or if you want to keep par times, your decision if your proposal is accepted. I will post the status of how many IRC MD proposals that I receive each week.

Third we need a prize coordinator for next years IRC. Also submit a shooting resume with prize experience.

Fourth I need to remind everyone that these are not paid positions.

Send your proposals in now and avoid the rush

[JohnRodriguez]

why would a rules change need form need to be submitted when the rule already exist in the rule book for penaltiies overtime shots??? It's 10 seconds for a fixed time stage. Hitting a stop plate out of order is a 30 second penalty not 60 seconds.

If a form needs to be submitted, then one needs to be submitted to allow the use of the AP-1 target that was used on the F&N stage this year. The only target allowed by the ICORE rule book is the NRA D-1 target and the rule change still need to be submitted to allow the x-ring to be colored.

My suggeston to the people who actually are going to put the match on next year, submit the stages to Jeff and let him work the rules bugs out before the match happens.

One thing that I can suggest to help Chris Sallee out next year on the chrono stage is for all the shooters to submit their ammo at the sign in on thursday. this will give him that first night to pull bullets and weigh them.

Art and Dave had some real hair pullers at this years match and I am planning on submitted a rules change to try and get one of the problems fixed.

I'd like to thank them and the rest of the IRC crew for putting ont the show.

Edited June 9, 2012 by JohnRodriguez

[jmax]

John,

Chris is now stats so he will net be running the chrono so we will need some one to perform that task. You could shoot on the day before with the RO's and then run the chrono stage as you wish. Can we expect that you will take on that task?

[JohnRodriguez]

I don't think so. Rudy Warren and I did help Chris get set up a little bit on saturday. mainly get all the bags of ammo set up numerically

[dirtysanchez]

What? No option for "i don't care? Frankly, I don't care either way. An earlier poster summed it up really, it is the IRC. You know, the international championship. It isn't meant to be easy, and IMHO we take a risk in dumbing it down, making it PC, you know, like they do with kids sports these days. Everyone's a winner, you all get trophies and the rest of the PC bullshit.

I've personally shot it every way now, with, without par times, with and without black centers. Regardless, I've actually done better each year. I agree that the overtime penalty is too harsh, it should be as it was, 5 seconds. Yes, sometimes the match might be decided by this one stage. It could also be decided by one of the others, too.

I think that as long as we know a reasonable time in advance how it's going to be shot, that's sufficient. The stage is a good test of all the basic skills that make up ICORE. It doesn't really matter what way it is shot, one thing you can be assured of, and that is it will be won by the shooter who, strangely enough, has trained, has set himself up properly, knows his equipment, has good skills, and is mentally up to it. Same as in all the other pistol disciplines, actually.

[jmax]

We did not even have to wait a week for a proposal to run the IRC next year so it will be presented to the BOD in early July