Outbreak Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I've been doing some honest practice with people watching me in the last few weeks, as opposed to just club matches, and I've discovered a problem. In slow fire, focusing on accuracy and fundamentals, I'm pretty accurate. POA is POI out to about 25yd. When I'm shooting at speed, I push everything low. I threw some snap caps into my mags and I'm definitely diving/flinching/whatever you want to call it. Pushing the muzzle down at speed. Two alpha slow, charlie delta at speed. At powder burn distance it's no problem, and on steel I slow down a bit and make good hits. I'm not having issues with windage. Just diving the gun. The problem is I know my fundamentals are good slow, and that's the only way I know to practice fundamentals. I don't know how to practice fundamentals fast. Anyone have good techniques for getting rid of this pushing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Your pushing is an indication of fighting the gun during the firing cycle. As you speed up, you feel the need (probably subconsciously) to muscle the sights back into alignment, and then you are trying to "catch" the post in the notch at the proper time. The commonly accepted drill to correct this issue is the Bill Drill. While certainly helpful in this regard (I typically use it to better diagnose the very problem you're describing), in my experience, it's simply too big of a step at once to show the type of quick results that we're all looking for in our practice. Instead, I suggest that you load your magazines to capacity, index the sights on your target, and break a shot as you would in slow fire. Then another at the same pace. Then begin to speed it up a little bit, so that every shot (or 2 or 3) is quickening. By the time you finish, you should be pressing the trigger as quickly as you can track the sights-- obviously slower at 25 yards, so I typically run this drill a bit closer. You may want to start as close as 5 yards, or perhaps run the drill without a target at all! Your goal in this process is to simply see what you can see and feel what you can feel. Be aware of any clenching or unnecessary tension in your arms and body-- anything that would indicate a fight with the recoil. You can use this drill to improve trigger control at speed as well, but in your case, it sounds more like you just need to focus on letting the sights return to alignment instead of trying to force them there. That's not to say you just completely relax everything-- the actual process of timing is a hard one to describe. I perceive it as simply maintaining the same grip pressure every time the gun is on target and as each shot breaks, and simply "willing the sights to return to alignment" as Brian has put it several times. If you can't see the sights dipping below level, you're simply shooting faster than you can see. Fortunately, this drill is also helpful for improving your visual patience-- just focus on not breaking the shot until you can guarantee the hit. As you shoot more and more, the speed at which you can accomplish this will increase-- rushing it is a big, big problem. It may behoove you to run the Burkett timing drills as well, even before you delve into this drill. Though reducing the weight of your recoil spring can fine tune this process and prevent the slide from slamming home so hard that it exacerbates the muzzle dip, I consider this a fine tuning that should happen only AFTER you've mastered the proper technique-- and if you're slinging shots low when you shoot at speed, that's just not the case. Last but not least-- don't have a speed focus unless you're pushing the edge in practice. Shoot progressively quicker until your hits start to fall apart, then back it down a bit and keep that pace up. Push it from time to time and see what happens-- that's how you improve and better understand your limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOA Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Doing some dry frie drills will also help. As Bo said, set up some targets, keep going faster and faster until your accuracy drops below an acceptable level, around 90% A hits. Then back off a little and keep pushing. A time s essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) What does your trigger feel like at slow speed? Can you tell when it is getting ready to fire? Is there some sort of a tightening right at the end that lets you know a fraction more and the gun fires? If so you need to correct that. At speed it would be possible for your brain to recognize that rough spot and start the downward movement associated with controlling the recoil that split second before the gun actually fires. If the trigger squeeze is smooth all the way through then you are recognizing that the gun is ready to fire by location alone. If that is the case then use the above drills to teach yourself to not anticipate the shot. It is possible that you are slapping the trigger in this case rather than squeezing it. Edited June 3, 2012 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outbreak Posted June 3, 2012 Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Thanks to everyone! The trigger is clean with negligible pre and over travel. I'm pretty sure it's all in my head. When I concentrate and over-rule my sub conscious, I am accurate. It's also entirely possible I'm jerking it at speed. I spent most of the day loading, so I'm planning on going out to practice a bit tomorrow. Just gotta find some targets. The local club might have some old shot up targets, or I might just use paper plates or something. All I have right now are 1/4 size IPSC Metrics. Edited June 3, 2012 by Outbreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I love the drills mentioned. I would also incorporate some type of "near to far" drill. Typically a plate or smallish target at 25 yards or so, then a partial target at 16-18 yards, and finally an open target at spitting distance. This simple little 5 shot drill will teach you the correct trigger pull for the three most typical kind of shots. You can Run it near to far, or far to near. I do it both ways. I typically run it and then investigate. Meaning I walk to each target and confirm what I called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Watch these drills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 prairie dogging ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Put your attention into the tip of your trigger finger until you can feel the surface texture during shooting. That usually helps me break the cycle of doing anything other than cleanly breaking the trigger during the shot. Alternately put your attention on your weak hand grip, the key is to get your physical attention (I seem to be able to maintain two forms of attention simultaneously, visual and tactile. I'm not sure if others can handle more) on something, ANYthing so that your monkey brain can't grab control during the shot. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Pat, I believe,,, "that's the truth of the matter" Thanks for posting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I ran that drill in the TGO video today and it was very useful. My shots weren't drifting all over the place, but then added tension I experienced while "racing the Par time" was very notable. Thanks for posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Lol...don't thank me, thank TGO, they don't call him the Drillmaster for nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasant Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Great video...Thanks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaylanGivens Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Excellent video... Thanks for posting... Thanks for making it, TGO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiegunks Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Watch these drills. thanks pat. i am heading out right now to give these drills a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I've been doing some honest practice with people watching me in the last few weeks, as opposed to just club matches, and I've discovered a problem. In slow fire, focusing on accuracy and fundamentals, I'm pretty accurate. POA is POI out to about 25yd. When I'm shooting at speed, I push everything low. I threw some snap caps into my mags and I'm definitely diving/flinching/whatever you want to call it. Pushing the muzzle down at speed. Two alpha slow, charlie delta at speed. At powder burn distance it's no problem, and on steel I slow down a bit and make good hits. I'm not having issues with windage. Just diving the gun. The problem is I know my fundamentals are good slow, and that's the only way I know to practice fundamentals. I don't know how to practice fundamentals fast. Anyone have good techniques for getting rid of this pushing? Stop trying to shoot fast (in a match), and just shoot like you do in practice. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I find it very hard to do... but relax while doing things at speed. Eyes and movement are fast... grip is neutral and trigger finger is relaxed. Prep trigger but don't mash it. Someone on this forum said something like don't pull with 12 lbs for force on a 3 lb trigger. Not easy but I'm a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38super Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Unless it's a national or world shoot, everything else is practice. Use that relaxed practice image during the match, worry about score after the match. Pre stressing is great for metal, not for mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDCent Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Watch these drills. What are appropriate distances for practicing these drills (post #7)? I know it can/should be closer and work your way out, but what distance should you be working toward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I shoot those at 10m, I think 7-10m would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGus Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Watch these drills. Thanks for posting that video. Good drill and good advice. It's amazing how steady Leatham is when shooting so quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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