Support Hand "Master Grip"

[Blueridge]

I have seen where one-handed shooting can be specified in a stage, but I had a question if it could be required that a shooter use two hands but the master grip be with the support hand. For example a shooter who is right handed would have to hold the handgun in his left hand and use his right hand in the support function. While this could be awkward I don't see it as being dangerous or unreasonable. I do see it as a good challenge. If someone can shoot one-handed with their support hand then adding the primary hand to that would not cause a problem the way I see it.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Blueridge

[Skydiver]

I have seen where one-handed shooting can be specified in a stage, but I had a question if it could be required that a shooter use two hands but the master grip be with the support hand. For example a shooter who is right handed would have to hold the handgun in his left hand and use his right hand in the support function. While this could be awkward I don't see it as being dangerous or unreasonable. I do see it as a good challenge. If someone can shoot one-handed with their support hand then adding the primary hand to that would not cause a problem the way I see it.

In general, it's not allow under the "freestyle rule":

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permit-ted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

But being evil, on of the "physical limitations" allowance you could require a shooter to wear an oven mitt on the strong hand otherwise a per shot procedural will be assessed.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Skydiver

[bikerburgess]

But being evil, on of the "physical limitations" allowance you could require a shooter to wear an oven mitt on the strong hand otherwise a per shot procedural will be assessed.

I like that idea maybe with a table start to keep from having problems with the draw. (some day I may actually get lynched at a match)

Mike

[sperman]

I have seen where one-handed shooting can be specified in a stage, but I had a question if it could be required that a shooter use two hands but the master grip be with the support hand. For example a shooter who is right handed would have to hold the handgun in his left hand and use his right hand in the support function. While this could be awkward I don't see it as being dangerous or unreasonable. I do see it as a good challenge. If someone can shoot one-handed with their support hand then adding the primary hand to that would not cause a problem the way I see it.

In general, it's not allow under the "freestyle rule":

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permit-ted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

But being evil, on of the "physical limitations" allowance you could require a shooter to wear an oven mitt on the strong hand otherwise a per shot procedural will be assessed.

Or maybe you could force them to hold a torch by velcroing it to their hand.

[Blueridge]

I have seen where one-handed shooting can be specified in a stage, but I had a question if it could be required that a shooter use two hands but the master grip be with the support hand. For example a shooter who is right handed would have to hold the handgun in his left hand and use his right hand in the support function. While this could be awkward I don't see it as being dangerous or unreasonable. I do see it as a good challenge. If someone can shoot one-handed with their support hand then adding the primary hand to that would not cause a problem the way I see it.

In general, it's not allow under the "freestyle rule":

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permit-ted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

But being evil, on of the "physical limitations" allowance you could require a shooter to wear an oven mitt on the strong hand otherwise a per shot procedural will be assessed.

Hmmmm.....So it can be required on a stage that a shooter has to shoot one hand unsupported, but not support hand master grip and allow primary hand to be used to assist it? I do not see how it would violate the Freestyle rule as it does not force a shooting position, location or stance. Maybe I am missing something.

[Skydiver]

I have seen where one-handed shooting can be specified in a stage, but I had a question if it could be required that a shooter use two hands but the master grip be with the support hand. For example a shooter who is right handed would have to hold the handgun in his left hand and use his right hand in the support function. While this could be awkward I don't see it as being dangerous or unreasonable. I do see it as a good challenge. If someone can shoot one-handed with their support hand then adding the primary hand to that would not cause a problem the way I see it.

In general, it's not allow under the "freestyle rule":

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permit-ted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

But being evil, on of the "physical limitations" allowance you could require a shooter to wear an oven mitt on the strong hand otherwise a per shot procedural will be assessed.

Hmmmm.....So it can be required on a stage that a shooter has to shoot one hand unsupported, but not support hand master grip and allow primary hand to be used to assist it? I do not see how it would violate the Freestyle rule as it does not force a shooting position, location or stance. Maybe I am missing something.

You may be missing the "except as specified as below" which has 1.1.5.2, 1.1.5.3, 1.1.5.4 which deal with classifiers and standard exercises, and 1.1.5.5 which deals with long courses. In all of them, they only talk about shooting strong/weak hand unsupported. As I understand things, stance is not only the way the shooter presents their body to the target, but it also includes how the gun is gripped.

Without these exceptions for unsupported stances, imagine a course designer for a Production only gun match requiring shooters to shoot stages with a cup and saucer grip, or with the gun held upside down and triggered with the pinky, or with the gun held "gangsta" style, etc. It can get gimmicky (and/or ridiculous) very quickly.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Skydiver

[Poppa Bear]

Set up a stage where the shooter has to hold onto something in order to keep their balance as they shoot through a port, or a lever off to the side that they have to push on to open the port. To keep it fair have two ports. One that has to be shot with the right hand, and one that has to be shot with the left hand. Place identical arrays behind each port so that it is as fair as it can be.

[Skydiver]

Set up a stage where the shooter has to hold onto something in order to keep their balance as they shoot through a port, or a lever off to the side that they have to push on to open the port. To keep it fair have two ports. One that has to be shot with the right hand, and one that has to be shot with the left hand. Place identical arrays behind each port so that it is as fair as it can be.

Like a Rhodesian Wall: Second picture on this post: http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1201929

Although, I'm not quite sure whether a traditional Rhodesian wall will pass muster with 1.1.5.5. Is the space on the box enough for "movement and unencum-bered freestyle target engagement between the two."

This stage as I recall got around the issue by offering targets through the door although most people opted to ignore them until later:

Edited June 1, 2012 by Skydiver

[Nik Habicht]

Hmmmm.....So it can be required on a stage that a shooter has to shoot one hand unsupported, but not support hand master grip and allow primary hand to be used to assist it? I do not see how it would violate the Freestyle rule as it does not force a shooting position, location or stance. Maybe I am missing something.

P is for Practical. Shooting one handed simulates injury, or task performance with the other hand. If both hands are available, why would anyone choose to shoot weakhand supported?

I did once in a match -- but it was a special situation on a single stage......

[Blueridge]

Hmmmm.....So it can be required on a stage that a shooter has to shoot one hand unsupported, but not support hand master grip and allow primary hand to be used to assist it? I do not see how it would violate the Freestyle rule as it does not force a shooting position, location or stance. Maybe I am missing something.

P is for Practical. Shooting one handed simulates injury, or task performance with the other hand. If both hands are available, why would anyone choose to shoot weakhand supported?

I did once in a match -- but it was a special situation on a single stage......

First I'll thank Skydiver for pointing out additional rules for me to review.

Now to respond to your post. You point out that shooting one handed simulates injury, and I agree. Shooting master grip support hand with the primary hand assisting it can also simulate injury. The loss of fine motor skills (such as trigger squeese) can be lost through injury and necessitate the use of the support hand to handle master grip and trigger squeese. The primary hand might still me able to provide support through gross motor skill grip. Now you may suggest that it is far fetched, but shooting this way is taught by some instructors. It is a "just in case" scenario just like shooting one-handed. Still P for practical.

From what I have read it appears that requiring such in a USPSA match would not be allowed. That is okay with me if the rules preclude it. Still a useful skill to know though.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Blueridge

[aztecdriver]

First I'll thank Skydiver for pointing out additional rules for me to review.

Now to respond to your post. You point out that shooting one handed simulates injury, and I agree. Shooting master grip support hand with the primary hand assisting it can also simulate injury. The loss of fine motor skills (such as trigger squeese) can be lost through injury and necessitate the use of the support hand to handle master grip and trigger squeese. The primary hand might still me able to provide support through gross motor skill grip. Now you may suggest that it is far fetched, but shooting this way is taught by some instructors. It is a "just in case" scenario just like shooting one-handed. Still P for practical.

From what I have read it appears that requiring such in a USPSA match would not be allowed. That is okay with me if the rules preclude it. Still a useful skill to know though.

Wondering... First of all, this would be the same type of stipulation as weak hand or strong hand only. If you were to use said stipulation in the course and then augmented the course description to read.

"Use of support hand for grip or support is permitted" Then you can achieve what you are looking for, right? Is there anything that would forbid that stipulation - again, assuming all other normal weak/strong rules on the course are permitted.

[Nik Habicht]

Hmmmm.....So it can be required on a stage that a shooter has to shoot one hand unsupported, but not support hand master grip and allow primary hand to be used to assist it? I do not see how it would violate the Freestyle rule as it does not force a shooting position, location or stance. Maybe I am missing something.

P is for Practical. Shooting one handed simulates injury, or task performance with the other hand. If both hands are available, why would anyone choose to shoot weakhand supported?

I did once in a match -- but it was a special situation on a single stage......

First I'll thank Skydiver for pointing out additional rules for me to review.

Now to respond to your post. You point out that shooting one handed simulates injury, and I agree. Shooting master grip support hand with the primary hand assisting it can also simulate injury. The loss of fine motor skills (such as trigger squeese) can be lost through injury and necessitate the use of the support hand to handle master grip and trigger squeese. The primary hand might still me able to provide support through gross motor skill grip. Now you may suggest that it is far fetched, but shooting this way is taught by some instructors. It is a "just in case" scenario just like shooting one-handed. Still P for practical.

From what I have read it appears that requiring such in a USPSA match would not be allowed. That is okay with me if the rules preclude it. Still a useful skill to know though.

Nothing prevents you from entering a match with a weakside holster, and practicing/evaluating that technique....

I totally agree that being near ambidextrous is very useful.....

[Schutzenmeister]

Nothing prevents you from entering a match with a weakside holster, and practicing/evaluating that technique....

I totally agree that being near ambidextrous is very useful.....

Except, perhaps, the definition of "Strong Hand."

If one is wearing a holster on their "weak" side, then, by definition, it becomes the "strong" side. (See the glossary for definition of "Strong Hand" and "Weak Hand.") Effectively, the side you wear your holster on determines what we call "strong" and "weak" hands for competitive purposes. Whether one is right or left handed has nothing to do with it.

Whether or not one can shoot worth a damn with their "weak" hand is another issue!

[JAFO]

Wondering... First of all, this would be the same type of stipulation as weak hand or strong hand only. If you were to use said stipulation in the course and then augmented the course description to read.

"Use of support hand for grip or support is permitted" Then you can achieve what you are looking for, right? Is there anything that would forbid that stipulation - again, assuming all other normal weak/strong rules on the course are permitted.

I'd say that 3.2.5 precludes that.

3.2.5 A written stage briefing must comply with the current USPSA rules.

Allowing supported weak hand shooting negates the procedurals in 10.2.8, which would not comply with the current rules.

[Blueridge]

Nothing prevents you from entering a match with a weakside holster, and practicing/evaluating that technique....

I totally agree that being near ambidextrous is very useful.....

And I am just determined/stubborn enough to do just that.

Now I need to obtain a left side holster from Blade Tech for one of my production handguns and/or one of my revolvers. Then it will be time to go out to the range, practice drawing and shooting with a left side holster, and then make my way to a local match to put those skills to the test.

[Nik Habicht]

Nothing prevents you from entering a match with a weakside holster, and practicing/evaluating that technique....

I totally agree that being near ambidextrous is very useful.....

Except, perhaps, the definition of "Strong Hand."

If one is wearing a holster on their "weak" side, then, by definition, it becomes the "strong" side. (See the glossary for definition of "Strong Hand" and "Weak Hand.") Effectively, the side you wear your holster on determines what we call "strong" and "weak" hands for competitive purposes. Whether one is right or left handed has nothing to do with it.

Whether or not one can shoot worth a damn with their "weak" hand is another issue!

Go back to sleep...... :D

Obviously, by wearing a holster on the other side, you'd shoot freestyle with the other hand, strong hand with the other hand, etc. and hopefully learn something....

Training move, not gamer move....