Six Round Neutral ?

[varminter22]

The ICORE rulebook states:

The stage layout must be 6 round neutral.

But what is the specific definition of "Six round neutral"?

SHOULD or MUST stages be set up to allow six-shot revolver shooters to need the same number of reloads as an eight-round revolver shooter?

Or is it okay to have stages that favor the eight-shot revolver shooters?

Is "six-round neutral" and "six-round friendly" the same?

[Waltermitty]

The ICORE rulebook states:

The stage layout must be 6 round neutral.

But what is the specific definition of "Six round neutral"?

SHOULD or MUST stages be set up to allow six-shot revolver shooters to need the same number of reloads as an eight-round revolver shooter?

Or is it okay to have stages that favor the eight-shot revolver shooters?

Is "six-round neutral" and "six-round friendly" the same?

Your Match Director can give better details in person, but Six Round Neutral means that all shooting positions (ports, boxes, shooting areas, strings) can be completed with six rounds and no misses.

There is no rule regarding number of reloads and making a stage "reload neutral" would certainly boggle the mind.

If the stage is six round neutral, any advantage the eight shot has is minimal. Do you have an example of a stage that is six round neutral but favors eight shot shooters?

I haven't seen a definition of "six-round friendly" although some people use the term in jest.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Waltermitty

[diehli]

Do you have an example of a stage that is six round neutral but favors eight shot shooters?

I can think of a simple example:

3 paper in position 1

1 or 2 steel on the way to position 2

3 paper in position 2

[Waltermitty]

Do you have an example of a stage that is six round neutral but favors eight shot shooters?

I can think of a simple example:

3 paper in position 1

1 or 2 steel on the way to position 2

3 paper in position 2

I agree that there would be one less reload for the 8 shot with no misses, but unless the course was extremely small, like one step from position one to two, the travel time would help even things out. No solution is perfect of course, but in observing actual courses, the big difference is having to reload while engaging an array.

A conscientious MD would work to ensure no one was trying to game the course design.

[varminter22]

Apparently I've not posted enough here to be authorized to post links nor images.

I'll work on that!

[Bubber]

Six round neutral is is just that the course is to set up to negate the advantages of the 7 or 8 round guns. A 9 shot array does this as wll as the 10 shot array. You could have 8 shots visible from one position but design the course so that the 7 and 8th shot are a little tight and that the 7th and 8th shot can be taken elsewhere and having it that where the 6 shot would move and reload to take the shots other targets would be available and the 8 shot would have to be in that area to engage the other targets. Movement requirement wold also negate the capacity advantage as a six shooter should be able to be reloaded in 2 to 4 steps. It just takes extra thinking on course designer and set up crews. later rdd

[varminter22]

Thanks, guys.

That was my thoughts too.

I think Bubber nailed it.

I did pose the question to ICORE via email. No response yet.

Don't know how many posts I must have here before I can post links and photos. Gotta work on getting the required number!

Thanks again.

[varminter22]

The ICORE rulebook says:

The stage layout must be 6 round neutral. The Match Director of each event is responsible for this.

I wrote to ICORE asking for a definition of "six round neutral" about a week ago. No response yet.

Here is the stage in question:

http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/phpnuke/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/rsamonte/USPSA/MAY_20_2012/1%20STAND%20UP%20AND%20SHOOT%20%28791x1024%29.jpg

http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/phpnuke/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/rsamonte/ICORE/MAY_19_2012/normal_DSC00128%20%281024x575%29.jpg

Yes, it is a USPSA stage. We tend to use some USPSA stages - and in theory modify them to be ICORE suitable - because we shoot ICORE on Saturday and leave much set up for USPSA the following day (Sunday.) BUT this particular stage was not modified.

I did inquire about that, but was told in effect, "The M625 is obsolete; buy an eight-shot revolver." Now that didn't necessary make me "mad" because if thats true, sobeit. But it did make me want to inquire further.

It seems to me that stage (above) isn't in the spirit of ICORE rules, because 8-shot revolvers most definitely have a huge advantage - just my personal opinion. Don't know yet how ICORE will respond to my question.

[Bubber]

The ICORE rulebook says:

The stage layout must be 6 round neutral. The Match Director of each event is responsible for this.

I wrote to ICORE asking for a definition of "six round neutral" about a week ago. No response yet.

Here is the stage in question:

http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/phpnuke/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/rsamonte/USPSA/MAY_20_2012/1%20STAND%20UP%20AND%20SHOOT%20%28791x1024%29.jpg

http://www.stillwaterfirearms.org/phpnuke/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/rsamonte/ICORE/MAY_19_2012/normal_DSC00128%20%281024x575%29.jpg

Yes, it is a USPSA stage. We tend to use some USPSA stages - and in theory modify them to be ICORE suitable - because we shoot ICORE on Saturday and leave much set up for USPSA the following day (Sunday.) BUT this particular stage was not modified.

I did inquire about that, but was told in effect, "The M625 is obsolete; buy an eight-shot revolver." Now that didn't necessary make me "mad" because if thats true, sobeit. But it did make me want to inquire further.

It seems to me that stage (above) isn't in the spirit of ICORE rules, because 8-shot revolvers most definitely have a huge advantage - just my personal opinion. Don't know yet how ICORE will respond to my question.

Varminter22, The entire rule is "1. Stages must be set up in a safe manner, without presenting a hazard to any shooter. You must take into consideration ricochets, ground hazards, visibility, local shooters abilities and any other item that may constitute a problems such as, 180's, shoot throughs etc. NOTE: The stage layout must be 6 round neutral. The Match Director of each event is responsible for this.

As I see the layout there seems to be some changes made to the general stage, maybe not enough to negate the 8 shot advantage. On the original layout an additional target to either side and the removal of the stipulation of engaging T1 to T4 from box A only would negate the 8 shot advantage. With only three targets required to be engaged from Box A allows the 8 shot to shoot all eight and then from the next box there wil be a required reload of both the 6 and 8 shots. It is something that needs to be worked through with help on the design and set up prior to the match. It is up to the Match Director to iron out these bumps. later rdd

[pjk]

No "Stand up and Shoot" is not 6 shot neutral.

I fix it by moving T4 to behind screen.......that would leave 5 tgts to be engaged after leaving Box A. You would also need to include a mandatory relaod after last shot in Box A.

PK

[Bubber]

No "Stand up and Shoot" is not 6 shot neutral.

I fix it by moving T4 to behind screen.......that would leave 5 tgts to be engaged after leaving Box A. You would also need to include a mandatory relaod after last shot in Box A.

PK

No need to require a mandatory reload after leaving box A as there would be no advantage carrying 2 rounds to the next box and having to do a reload there to finish one array then long swing to the next array. PM if want to discuss my reasoning, or therefore lack of. later rdd

[varminter22]

As I see the layout there seems to be some changes made to the general stage, maybe not enough to negate the 8 shot advantage. On the original layout an additional target to either side and the removal of the stipulation of engaging T1 to T4 from box A only would negate the 8 shot advantage. With only three targets required to be engaged from Box A allows the 8 shot to shoot all eight and then from the next box there wil be a required reload of both the 6 and 8 shots. It is something that needs to be worked through with help on the design and set up prior to the match. It is up to the Match Director to iron out these bumps. later rdd

No changes were made to the stage as depicted.

There were four targets to engage (eight shots) from standing behind the table (Box A).

Then, after moving around the table, four more targets to engage (eight shots) from standing in the shooting area between the walls (in front of the table.)

Don't want this to become a "major complaint" but it just appeared to me to not be compliant with "six-round neutral." Seems like most here agree.

Thanks for the comments.

Edited May 28, 2012 by varminter22

[jmax]

Look at this years results and see where Josh L finished shooting Classic. It was no handicap for him at all.

[varminter22]

Look at this years results and see where Josh L finished shooting Classic. It was no handicap for him at all.

Roger that!

But not germane to this particular topic of "six round neutrality."

In this particular stage (depicted here in this thread), Josh's score could not have been as competitive as a shooter (with similar ability) with a eight shot revolver.

[varminter22]

I did pose the question to ICORE via email.

A month has elapsed. No reply from ICORE.