Whacked out SWAT Teams

[EricW]

At the risk of getting the hell flamed out of me, here I go...

I cannot stand the modern, paramilitary, Police SWAT teams (SERT, or whatever they call themselves these days).  I'm pretty damn conservative, but what I see anymore makes me think the Law Enforcement needs to get reigned in a notch or two - maybe three.

Don't get me wrong.  I know that being a cop isn't one of the safer occupations.  I'm not saying they should have to wear Birkenstocks and shoot Nerf bullets, but every time I turn on the news to see a SWAT team in our area on the job, I am simply stunned by the outlandishness of it all:

Camoflage clothes & facepaint - Who the hell do they think they're kidding?  News flash!!  The camo makes them stand out *more*. They're the police, not the Green Berets.  They should wear uniforms that make them look like Police.  There is NO GOOD REASON to do anything else.  If you're a cop, look like a cop. Green camoflage doesn't do crap for concealment in urban areas, and not even God could convice me otherwise.

Armored Personnel Carriers - Where are we?  Mogadishu?  Belfast?  What incident justified this?  What's next, a tank?  Field artillery?  

Oh, and almost forgot to mention...

Careless Storage of Select Fire Weapons -  These super-commandos gotta be on call 24/7.  I have no problem with that, but where do they store their MP5's?  In a safe?  In the Armored Personnel Carrier?  Nooooo.  They leave it in a duffel bag in their living room for anyone to steal.  Or, better yet, they leave it in the trunk of their car.  (Gee, I'd never look there for a gun.)  To top it off, these are the same yahoos that hassle you for 45 minutes on a routine traffic stop because you have a carry permit.  

At least locally, the Police have gone so Paramilitary it's really bothersome. It is most definitely alienating.  It makes one feel like Martial Law has been declared.  I honestly believe that it's to the point where it escalates violence.  I can begin to understand why criminals shoot it out.  It looks like the Marines have landed and it's kill or be killed.  I used to sympathize with the Police, but their tactics have become so confrontational anymore, it's hard to regard them as anything but the enemy.  

Here's my deal:  If you want to act look and act like a human being, help people, try to defuse violent confrontations, and endure the occasional, unavoidable shootout, you're welcome to stick around and be a cop. If you want to play Army, go see your recruiter.  Otherwise, cut the paramilitary crap out.  It's just plain damned uncouth.  Take your camoflage, your armored personnel carrier, and the machine guns (I shudder to think what you have that I *don't* know about) and get the hell out of my town.  Somewhere, on another continent, there is a two-bit, tinhorn dicatorship that will welcome your management style.

Sorry, but that's how I feel.

E

[Jon Merricks]

My guess you've never been shot at for trying to help somebody.  My guess is you have never had your best buddy shot by some one who just dont give a damn. My guess is you have never told a Buddies Widow that if her or her kids need any thing to call you, because Daddy was killed keeping the streets safe.  My guess is you never had your child kiddnaped by an armed fool and needed someone to go and get them.  My guess is you have never kicked in the door to a crack house and been met by a dealer with nothing to loose.  My guess is you have never helped your locals do anything to improve what you say they are doing wrong. My guess is you never will have or done any of these things. This is not a slam Eric cause I like you "but thats just how I feel". I'm done here.

[EricW]

John,

I like you too, & the other LEO's here.  

Actually, I have had someone try to shoot me, stab me, and run me over with a truck, not to mention other war stories I could tell.  But no, I've never seen it from the side of an LEO.

I just think, at least locally (Portland), a line has been crossed between what constitutes legitimate law enforcement and the military.  The "there's a bad guy, let's suit up and go to war" mindset really disturbs me.  Cops in full web gear and war paint running around the neighborhood just seems out of place in what is otherwise a very peaceful metropolitan area.  I don't see the point in presenting such a negative image.  

I'm all done ranting now.  (Much to everyone's relief, I'm sure.)

E

[old shooter]

I really don't want to fan this flam too much, but I seem to have the same feeling as Eric.  I am not sure why, but my gut feeling is that as LEO's dress more like soldiers, they seem to be less aproachable to me.  Just not that warm cozy feeling you would get from walking up to, say Andy Griffith.  I know that sounds crazy, but when I was younger, cops just seemed friendlier. I know times change, but I don't get the feeling that that they are on my side, or that I am a "person".  I also can't believe how rude and ignorant someone could be to a LEO.  I was raised to respect all men in uniform.  I am glad that there are those willing to do the job of LE, but I see the division between civilians and LEO's widening and don't know what will change it.

[JFD]

Camoflage clothes & facepaint tends to irk me as well.  The more I interact with these types the more I get the impression they are "playing soldier".  That's about the last thing we need from supposed professionals.

[ErikW]

The whole paramilitary thing started long before the concept of SWAT teams. Officers, patrols, operations, watches, sergeants, lieutenants, captains, chiefs, uniforms, rank insignia, etc. Not to mention the haircuts.

To be fair, woodland camo has been proven to be better as night camoflauge than navy blue or black or whatever. And I'm sure they've got a good excuse or rationale or justification for wearing balaclavas, but it escapes me.

[Steve Anderson]

If I was the first one thru the door, I would want to look as scary and intimidating as possible. I would want the suspect to think of me as Rambo meets the Terminator.

That way, hopefully, I would not have to shoot him.

The appearance does not concern me if the actions are honorable.

SA

(On a lighter note, I'd need the element of surprise to have enough time for tactical reloads. )

[ErikW]

"If I was the first one thru the door, I would want to look as scary and intimidating as possible."

Green pants with Para Ordnance down the side ("Hey y'all 'r under arrest!") or black and blue with yellow Springfield Armory lettering.

[Steve Anderson]

Yeah, that sounds about right...Very Scary.

SA

[Chriss Grube]

Let's put it this way, I'm going home alive and well at the end of my shift. The world has changed this aint Mayberry! BDU's are the most practical uniform for a hostile environment. The balaclavas provide protection for the head and neck area from debris and hot casings. Ask the people at the N. Hollywood bank robbery if they would have a problem with an APC rolling up. It's easy to sit on your ass behind a computer and bitch that you don't like this or that, It's a whole different world when you're the one that is being shoot at. Yep, I choose to do the job. When everyone is hauling ass out of the area we're the ones going in. We're also the ones doing the drug prevention, car seats, bike checks etc for the kids. Guess what, we hear all the bitching, accusations and put up with the BS to make the world a little safer. Maybe we are all crazy, but we keep going in to work every day.

[BrianH]

EricW:

The only time I remember seeing the Portland SWAT was that downtown bank robbery in about '96 or something......seems like the Mult. County Sheriff does most of the work, and SWAT is just for show (maybe I'm wrong).....

[ErikW]

Was it Portland or Seattle that took down that whacked out swordsman with a fire hose and a ladder? That was a class act.

[EricW]

Brian -

You're right.  The local SWAT (SERT) team was acutally shut down for a while due to several episodes of misconduct.  

Erik -

I believe that may have been in Seattle.  I heard about a guy walking the city streets with a broadsword strapped on his back.  Maybe not...

--------------

At least locally, the government has to share a good deal of the blame for the escalation.  In Portland, they refuse to create enough jail space to house the criminals, so now most crimes short of rape and murder are ticketed offenses.  Car theft is not even prosecuted.  I guess be pretty damn adversarial myself if I had to write some pimp dope dealer a ticket every week.  

E

[Chriss Grube]

EricW,

Yep most of the turds are back on the street before the paperwork gets finished. IF the court system would do their job and put them away like they should we wouldn't need all the toys. Unfortunately the world is getting a whole lot scarier everyday. The bikers are making a big come back, the bangers with 2 strikes already have nothing to lose, and who the hell knows where the next terrorist attack is going to come from.

I look at it like this go in with the best equipment for the job. You wouldn't enter Open division using production legal gear and expect to win. If you lose on the street you get the flag draped casket and a 21 gun salute, your friends all say what a nice guy you were and you leave a widow and kids. No thanks, I plan on playing with grandkids someday and I want my friends to remember that I'm an a_-hole not a nice guy!

[Nik Habicht]

---

Quote: from Chriss Grube on 11:04 am on July 17, 2002

I want my friends to remember that I'm an a_-hole not a nice guy!

---

People in Hell want ice water too.  You may be capable of being an a_-hole when the circumstances require it, but we already know you're a nice guy.  Speaking of Grandkids are you a dad yet?  And weren't you expecting girls? If so, how are the grandkids ever gonna happen ----- since you're gonna run off every potential boyfriend, or scare them into impotence?

Yeah, I'm starting with you....

[Chriss Grube]

Nik,

No kids yet. It's a boy and a girl so there's hope for grandchildren yet. She can date.... when I'm old and senile! If she doesn't go into labor by Monday they are going to do a C section. I'm already on Georges list for 2 raceguns in about 6 years. Quit spreading these lies that I'm a nice guy. You're going to ruin my hardass image.

[Nik Habicht]

Chriss,

Just so long as the bad guys (or the dolts who can't see State Troopers standing in the middle of the road) don't figure it out you'll be o.k.

And in about a week, when you're showing everyone the daily pics of your progeny, everyone'll know you're just a softie anyway.....  I'm crossing my fingers for ya!

[TDean]

I would also like highlight the shootout at the N.Hollywood branch of Bank of America a few years ago as the catalyst for what you're seeing today.

The available weapons "on the street" are far more lethal than what your typical patrol cop carrys, so an equal to or better than "team" must be available to rid our communities of these animals.  

There's a certain spirit that men share who voluntarily go into harms way.  (Rangers, Delta, Green Berets, SWAT..ect)

I respect our military community, and I respect our law enforcement community.  Both are using the similiar techniques to gain an advantage over the "enemy" although they are totally seperate entities.  

As long as my cousin who's on Philadelphia's SWAT team comes home to his family every night, I don't care what he wears.

[EricW]

Maybe I could buy all this "technology" escalation if the SWAT team I saw was wearing a camo pattern such as Realtree Rhododendren or Mossy Oak Rusty Camaro, but the BDU's combined with the full facepaint at 2:30 in the afternoon just seemed a little silly to me.

Yes, police and the military do "voluntarily go into harms way" every day.  So do a lot of folks in other less public professions that are equally or more dangerous.  I'm not trying to minimize what anyone does, but lots of families live with the worry of the phone call or the knock on the door.  It sucks, but it's a life we choose.  I *am* certainly glad that people *do* choose to take the risk.  It is a noble thing.

I just wonder, in our zeal to use any means at our disposal to defeat "the enemy," if in the end he might be us.

E

[ErikW]

LMAO, EricW. And stale Budweiser for a scent blocker?

[InTheBlack]

The issue of the paramilitarization of the police in general is very important.  The SWAT teams that only mobilize for particular situations are somewhat different.  However, it concerns me that the SWAT thing is what the beat cop aspires to.  I'd like to see actual statistics, but it seems to me that a lot of new hires are coming out of the military.  And I don't think this is a good thing.  If a force thinks that military experience is a bonus, I would want to know exactly why.  Giving the police a meaner image because it is alleged that the streets are getting meaner doesn't solve any root causes.

Warriors will always be outside of the general society.  It is not a good thing for society to view the beat cop as a warrior.  I think the British are undergoing a confusing change in their perception of what the Bobby is or needs to become.

[Phil Dunlop]

ITB,

I thought the same thing when I heard that Thames Valley Police had bought 4 Barrett 50's!

(reported in the dying editions of Guns Review magazine I think)

P.D.

[Chriss Grube]

ITB,

Root causes is the job of the PC do gooders. my job is to enforce the law and make the streets safe so your kids can play without getting shot, kidnapped, etc. These days the patrol officer is the first on the scene. Do you want us to sit and wait 4 hours for a swat team to be called, get to the scene, form a plan then enter to save your family. That was the SOP until Columbine. Now the patrol guys are trained to go in and stop the shooter. The military background ensures that they can take and follow orders, exist in a structured system and most have common sense. I'll take a vet over the college boy that spent 6 years trying to get a 4 year degree on daddy's dime because he was drunk for 4 years straight. GB is not a good example of police work. They have been at best ineffective. We don't have the military doing ops in our cities like they do. The crime rate has gone through the roof with their new gun control measures.

[jhgtyre]

I have several LEO's in my family and I have observed many more of them at the range I go to.  If the paramilitary/SWAT guys have the desire to train and do more than the "average" officer I applaud them.  I have seen many officers who could not shoot, were unsafe, and didn't come out to the range unless it was qualifier time.  I have also seen many who spend time off duty honing skills that they may need to save someones life.  If that means that they take on a certain mindset and appearance that is intimidating fine.  As long as I don't see them on the evening news bashing a handcuffed suspect into the trunk of a car I don't care.

-jhgtyre

[InTheBlack]

A mindset of aggressiveness is not really a good thing.  Being able to "deploy" that mindset instantly & appropriately is what we want.  Hard to achieve.

The TV is running a story about a high speed chase ending in a non functional vehicle on the RR tracks.  Perp runs into the woods and climbs a tree.  So the State Police have the guy treed.  One of them decides to climb the tree to go after the perp.  The trooper was stuck in his aggressive mind set when it was no longer appropriate.  Both of them fell out of the tree.

Sure, I want the beat cop to be able to stop the nut case, but I don't want him on patrol dressed like an extra in Blackhawk Down.  The hunter/killer is a _role_; one which an LEO takes on only in unusual circumstances, as opposed to a soldier who _defines_ himself that way.  Mindset (self image) strongly follows appearance.

I hope that the LEO community is consciously taking steps to train officers to effectively live a life that is somewhat schizophrenic with regards to the images they must project.  The American ethos is to respect symbols of law, but to resist soldiers.  So I say again, that the blurring of the distinction is a fundamentally bad thing.