Not making power factor with 200 gr and Clays

[ChuckB]

Ok, sorry guys but I am proving to be incapable of getting the correct data from the bench to the computer. The chamber is 1.29. With that in mind,how would you compensate for the OAL?

[kalaur]

I would probably go down to about 1.270 or so, given there is still at about .200 or so of the bullet in the case. I've said it before and I'll say it again - be wary of that clays :-)

Edited May 11, 2012 by kalaur

[Griz]

I'm using a Dillon Electronic scale and I am zeroing it before each weigh. When I check it with the 50g weight it is 49.96g.

I don't have that scale, but my RCBS scale has weights that you use to calibrate it before every session... Does your scale have a cal routine?

[njl]

This is a 200gr flat nose bullet. I'd go way shorter. How short can you go before the portion of the bullet that's .451" looks like it's about to disappear into the case mouth? My guess would be somewhere around 1.200".

Going shorter will give you more pressure = more velocity...and you did start out complaining that you weren't getting enough velocity.

Edited May 12, 2012 by njl

[ChuckB]

Griz, yes I have re-calibrated it since orientally posting. It now weighs out at 50g just as it should.

Njl, other then increasing pressure I don't see any benefit of going shorter. The original concern is that I wasn't getting the velocity I expected and afraid to go above the posted maximums. It seems that if I'm loading longer I'll have to go above the posted maximums and I'll just have to do it carefully. In the end though I have a round customized for my gun both in size and power.

[kalaur]

This is a 200gr flat nose bullet. I'd go way shorter. How short can you go before the portion of the bullet that's .451" looks like it's about to disappear into the case mouth? My guess would be somewhere around 1.200".

Going shorter will give you more pressure = more velocity...and you did start out complaining that you weren't getting enough velocity.

<snip>Njl, other then increasing pressure I don't see any benefit of going shorter. <snip>

+1, no reason to go shorter just to increase velocity. Increase charge weight instead.

<snip>The original concern is that I wasn't getting the velocity I expected and afraid to go above the posted maximums.<snip>

What velocity were you expecting, and where did you find this data?

[ChuckB]

Well the Internet of course.

It seemed like most of the posts I read were making power factor with 4.2 to 4.3 grains. Yes I know, the Internet is a collection of worthless information.

I guess it wasn't just forums, even the hodgdon site had 4.3 grains making power factor. Of course that was with a shorter OAL.

Edited May 13, 2012 by ChuckB

[kalaur]

Well the Internet of course.

It seemed like most of the posts I read were making power factor with 4.2 to 4.3 grains. Yes I know, the Internet is a collection of worthless information.

I guess it wasn't just forums, even the hodgdon site had 4.3 grains making power factor. Of course that was with a shorter OAL.

The Hodgdon site lists 4.3 making power factor with lead 200gr bullets, not plated or jacketed. Most of the clays data I've found around the internet is also for lead bullets.

[njl]

I don't know how fragile Rainier's plating is, but I've recently loaded some 200gr round nose flat point Precision bullets and found that just cycling some dummies in my guns, the coating on the sides of the bullets tended to get damaged either on the way into or out of the chamber...so I solved that by keeping the COAL to a minimum. Basically, I'm using the brass case to try to protect all the bullet's bearing surface from damage while sliding into the chamber. I've been getting really amazing accuracy from them, so I don't believe that, at least with handgun bullets, loading long to get close to the rifling has any accuracy benefit.

[kevinj308]

I got chrono'ed at an IDPA match with 200 Laser Cast leads at 186 PF using Clays. Never saw any sign of primer flattening. Don't know the length - just a thumbnail thickness of the shoulder (SWC) past the case.

This is good advice on OAL in a .45. It really isn't any more complicated than that. And I've been chrono'ed at 187pf with Clays, in another gun of mine it does 176pf. Same load, out of the same run on the press. The 187pf is in a 5" barreled 625 and the 176pf is in a 5" barreled 1911. Go figure. There's definitely differences in guns. Go up a little and see what you get. I stop if I increase the charge and there's no corresponding increase in muzzle velocity. To me that's getting near a bad place. But stop micro analyzing the OAL, that's not the source of your issue. IMHO.

Kevin

[CocoBolo]

Lots of good info. I've used Clays and WST exclusively with 200gr Precision Moly and Bayou Bullets, rn and SWC. Your OAL is way long for a FN. A RN Precision or Bayou is set 1.220 and the nose is not flat. The SWC's I set at 1.260 that is with the full size diameter set a thumb nail width above the rim.

My load with Clays and 200 gr RN or SWC is 4.3gr and it crono's in at 170pf. Out of a 5" gun.

With WST it is 4.7gr. See above for oal specs.

The Precision Moly or Bayou are easier to push than the Rainer and will take less powder for same velocity.

You are a 100fps off, you need to check that you are not over crimping, that can take 60fps off easy. Just a very slight crimp is all you need. It just has to pass the thumb press test.

Clays shoots very soft, WST is good but the Clays is the best. I think Clays can be dangerous in 40, and in 9 mm it isn't accurate but for 45 yeah baby its the one.

Edited May 13, 2012 by CocoBolo

[kevinj308]

You are a 100fps off, you need to check that you are not over crimping, that can take 60fps off easy. Just a very slight crimp is all you need. It just has to pass the thumb press test.

That's a really good point. Just remove the bell. Good call.

Kevin

[ChuckB]

CocoBolo, what issues should I watch for with the OAL? Just feeding or others?

I've been following the lead data for the Rainiers only because that is the only guidince from Rainer.

http://www.rainierballistics.com/loaddata.php

I was having a hard time measureing the crimp. It was just too easier to get an incorrect measurement by moving the calibur just a thousands of an inch. I actually went to the thumb test instead of actually measuring. They seem to be about .469 to .471 though when I do try to measure.

[kevinj308]

Just so long as you get all the bell out of the case. That's the important part, maybe a thousandth or two of crimp at most. If you can run your finger along side the mouth of the case and can't feel any lip you're doing ok. You'll probably see a shiny ring just around the case mouth where the crimp die pressed the bell out of the case. That's enough right there. Full contact from the taper crimp die is gonna do it. It's much more important to avoid any over crimping, as he noted above.

All that being said .470-.471 is right about where you should be. So sounds like that's not a problem for you.

Kevin

[shooter57]

So what was your outcome?

[ChuckB]

I actually just made it back to the range today and I'm putting the data together now. I'm up to 4.7 Gr with a 1.27 OAL at an average of 807 FPS. I've loaded up some 4.8, 4.9 and 5.0 for testing next time.

I also put some together with a 1.22 OAL, 4.4 Gr is coming in at an average of 770 FPS.

[kevinj308]

Primer's still looking ok? No flattening or flowing of the primer metal?

[pskys2]

You might need to drop the OAL to 1.23 or so with a FN design.

With Ranier's 200 RN at 1.250 I had to go up to 4.8 grains of Clays to make 170PF.

Was a great load though.

[CocoBolo]

You might need to drop the OAL to 1.23 or so with a FN design.

With Ranier's 200 RN at 1.250 I had to go up to 4.8 grains of Clays to make 170PF.

Was a great load though.

Great load, but you need to get some good bullets. Precision or Bayou a 1/2gr less powder then it is like shooting an airsoft. I really like the SWC in these bullets they have nice rounded corners so it feeds in about any gun. Nice big round holes accurate to the point you have to move POA or hit the same POI.

[ChuckB]

Here's some updated data, I've finally hit power factor! Don’t use this data though, work up your own loads. Keep in mind I have an extremely long OAL (yes I get that a lot) at 1.27, Rainier 200 gr bullets and Clay's powder.

4.8 gr = 819 FPS

4.9 gr = 829 FPS

5.0 gr = 846 FPS

Primers and cases look good with no signs of pressure issues. Next I'll need to reconfirm this data and try some at 5.1 just to make sure everything is safe with some leeway.

[kevinj308]

Glad it worked out. You did it right, started low and worked up with a chrono. Don't try that load in another gun without checking a lower charge weight first though

[ChuckB]

I now have almost 400 rounds of 5.0 grains of clays with the 1.27 OAL through my XDM. I've had two malfunction issues which were magazine related. It seemed the follower was hanging up in the mag and a good cleaning of all of them seemed to have cleared up that issue. My official chrono results at the State match last weekend averaged a 172.6 power factor.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Edited June 12, 2012 by ChuckB

[Luv2rideWV]

I'm a fairly new reloader, but here is the load I used at the SS Nationals, and it made 169.4 power factor with an average velocity of 851 fps: 200 gr LSWC over about 4.2 gr of Clays with OAL of 1.25" and crimp to 0.469 to 0.470"

I think the chronograph stage was my best stage at the Nationals.

I'm sure that the power factor might be a little different out of my 4" 625, though.

I guess some guns are different, but 5.0 grains of Clays sounds like a lot - take care.

[co-exprs]

I popped in here because I am experienceing the same issues as others here have described. With 200gr LSWC I can make major easy with any of the fast powders (clays, titegroup, Solo) and near min charge weight and factory legth. Switch to any of 200gr jacketed bullets and the story changes significantly. I'm forced to load above max on any powder slower than Universal. Right now I'm running some 200gr Rainiers and 231, loaded .3gr over max and I'm boarderline major. Fortuntely I made these rounds for Heman in 3gun, where no one cares. I really like running 200gr in my 45's but have always struggled with getting jacketed loads working. I've tried Precision molly's and Barry's plated, but found them a little more finicky to load than I care to deal with. The odd thing is that I ran 230gr for years and had no trouble making major with the fastest powders and min charges, no matter which bullet I was running. I've got some Bayou Bullets on order to try. Maybe that will be the answer.

[kalaur]

WST, WSF, Universal, Titegroup, 700X, and 231 all make major pretty easily with 200 or 230 grain jacketed or lead/coated bullets.