Not making power factor with 200 gr and Clays

[ChuckB]

I'm new to reloading and I'm struggling to make power factor with a 45 200gr Rainier's FN and Clays. For OAL I'm shooting for 1.25 and the actual rounds are coming out between 1.25 and 1.26 and some change.

68 Degreesss

5000 Feet above see level

My average FPS out of 10 rounds:

4.1 Grains = 706 FPS

4.2 Grains = 723 FPS

4.3 Grains = 765 FPS

The FPS listed are averages, each round was all over the place in regards to speed (again new to reloading) but I have weighed every throw individually and not a single one hit the required 825 FPS to make Power Factor.

Any help would be very appreciated. Do I bump up to the weight of the load? Do I load shorter? Is there something else I'm missing?

Edited May 7, 2012 by ChuckB

[Too_Slow]

Two things; it looks like the OAL should be about 1.225 not 1.25 and what gun are you using (type and barrel length)? You may need to go with a different powder than Clays to get what you need.

Brian

Edited May 7, 2012 by Too_Slow

[ChuckB]

XDM 5.25"

[mbopp]

4.3gr is the MAX Hodgdon lists on their website for a 200gr bullet. And I've heard Clays has a very steep pressure curve if you try to exceed the maximum loads.

Are you sure about your chronograph? Can you compare your rounds with another one?

You say you're weighing each powder charge? What scale are you using? Does it return to zero each time, and do you have any check weights?

Dropping the OAL to 1.22" will help if it'll feed at that length.

[Solvability]

Switch to W231 and use load data for jacketed bullets with Ranier - they were never as fast as lead bullets with the same load data.

[ChuckB]

I'm using a Dillon Electronic scale and I am zeroing it before each weigh. When I check it with the 50g weight it is 49.96g. I don't know what the chrono is, it's currently the only one I have access to.

I did check some factory Federal Champion 230gr on the chrono which averaged 806 FPS. The specs on the box are as follows:

Muzzle - 830

50 yrds - 794

100 yrds - 760

So the 12ish plus feet I was checking seems right.

I've been doing some google searches and I'm seeing OALs of 1.225 down to 1.175. It looks like I got my original length base on what should have been round nose.

Where do I start trying to determine the OAL? I originally started the other direction trying to find what would fit in the gun correctly. Should I start with a 1.225, check feed and FPS down until it doesn't feed properly or is there a more educated starting point?

The Lyman manual lists two 200gr FN rounds but I'm not sure which one is closest to the Rainier.

452630 - 1.235 OAL

452460 - 1.161 OAL

[twodownzero]

Determine length by what feeds in your gun, chamber, and magazine length, not the book. The book lists the minimum safe length for that load.

Use more powder if you can't make power factor. Also, replace the battery in your chrono. You should be able to make power factor even with plated bullets. My 230 grain load is 3.6 grains of clays with a moly bullet and it will make pf every time.

[Too_Slow]

I will agree with Solvability and say try W231, the charge weights are 5.2 to 5.9 grains with a minimum OAL of 1.190. That doesn't mean that you have to load that short it is just that you can safely.

Brian

[noylj]

The only real use for clays in the .45ACP are for light target loads such as you loaded. It is just too "fast" and pressure spikey to take anywhere near major.

Nothing wrong with your COL. Manual's COLs are not recommendations, they are simply the minimum the data applies to. Even the manuals that call the COL "MAX" actually mean that they are using the maximum COL that SAAMI specified for testing and it is NOT a maximum for the reloader.

Look to HP38, AA2, or even Solo 1000 if you want to stay with fast powders. All are much better "behaved" than Clays.

Edited May 7, 2012 by noylj

[ChuckB]

I'm not quite ready to give up on the Clays just yet... That and I have 4 lbs of it. According to the Hodgdon load data I should get 888 fps out of a 5" barrel with 4.3 grains and a 1.225 OAL. I just didn't expect that little of a deviation in the OAL to make that big of a difference.

It sounds like I have some testing to do. I'm thinking of testing 1.22 and 1.2 OAL with 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 grains. Any better suggestions?

[bbbean]

4.3gr is the MAX Hodgdon lists on their website for a 200gr bullet. And I've heard Clays has a very steep pressure curve if you try to exceed the maximum loads.

Obviously no one should EVER exceed manufacturer recommendations, but you'll find lots of .45 shooters running 4.6 to 4.8 grains of Clays in a 1.20-1.25 OAL round with 200 grain FMJ or JHP without problems or any indication of pressure spikes. The horror stories you hear about Clays are typically in .40, not .45.

BB

[Steve RA]

Here are my results with Clays and 200gr Missouri Bullet LSWC:

The three and four out of 5 are included as a writer or two have mentioned that the best 3 out of 5 handheld from a rest will pretty well equal 5 from a Ransom Rest. I'be got a Ransom and find that to be about correct.

Velocities taken from the 5" PT1911 Taurus, not the Colt Commander.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Steve RA

[ChuckB]

Steve, thanks for posting that. What OAL are you using?

[JakeMartens]

Are you using Clays,

International Clays

or Universal Clays

For 45acp I have been shooting Clays for 12 years with 200gr swc at 4.3 and 1.24-1.25 and am right around 830-840 out of 5inch 1911

I just chrono'd at SS Nat's with 4.3gr at 829fp average for a 167.4

[ChuckB]

Just Clays, not universal or international.

Edited May 7, 2012 by ChuckB

[Steve RA]

I'll measure one today and let you know. I generally load to a "plunk" test. In my case I shortened up the load as a friend has a Commander with a Ed Brown barrel and it has a slightly shorter chamber. After that my groups didn't change any so slight length change didn't make any difference.

I'd suggest just load them as long as you can and still have the base of the case flush with the barrel hood.

[njl]

If you want more velocity with the safety of not having to exceed recommended max load, try a jar of WST...then you'll probably buy a 4 or 8lb jug once you're hooked on it.

[ChuckB]

That's not the first recommendation I've heard for WST, from what I hear it is supposed to be pretty good. At this point though I just need to learn what I'm doing wrong, otherwise I'll just switch components and continue to have the same issues. It appears that I'm not getting the same velocity others are with a given load. That says to me that I'm either having issues weighing or my OAL isn't correct.

[kalaur]

+1 on the WST. It works great in 40 and 45, clean, available, and cheap. Its quite a bit slower than Clays, but if you only have a pound or two of Clays I'd suggest switching to WST and use the clays for minor loads or practice loads. I think clays is popular with 200gr bullets in 45, but with lead and moly bullets, not jacketed or plated.

When I'm working up a new load, I follow a few steps:

1. Find the maximum barrel OAL. Seat a bullet in a case or two with no primer or powder, seat the bullet very long. Do the plunk test, if it doesnt fit, shorten oal a bit, and try again. Record this value

2. Find maximum magazine OAL. Many bullet profiles are different, and they can get hung up in your mags. Similar to the step above, load empty cases with bullets and load a mag and see if they get hung up. (I usually start with the max barrel OAL above). Record this value.

3. I start loading with the shortest OAL of the two above and determine if they feed reliably. If not, shorten until it does.

4. Once I've determined OAL, start playing with powder charge to make the PF I need. As I search books and forums for load data, I keep in mind that if someone is loading longer than my OAL, I need to watch pressures for their charge weights, and if their loading shorter than my OAL, I will probably need more powder than them. I try to gather as much data as I can for charge weights and velocities, and try to start somewhere in the middle and start working up.

IMO, the only reason to change OAL is for issues feeding or magazine issues. Don't shorten OAL to increase velocity. Generally internal case volume plays direct relationships with pressures and velocities, but not in a linear fashion (IE: little shorter load, little higher velocity, lots higher pressures). I think its more safe to use a longer OAL than someone else(if you can) and maybe slightly more powder rather than shortening your load.

One other thing to note, its not the OAL that affects velocity/pressure, its internal case volume. Different bullets at the same OAL can have drastically different velocities due to case volume differences due to the length of the bullets being different.

When working up new loads just go slow, work your way up, and watch for pressure signs (flattened or mushroomed primers, flowing primers, bulging cases, etc)

I dont think you're doing anything wrong, your velocities are pretty close to what Hodgdon has published for 200gr bullets at 4.3gr of clays. Most others who are posting loads for clays are using lead bullets (in the chart posted above from 'Steve RA').

[ChuckB]

Kalaur, what your saying makes a lot of sense. Why make a custom round exactly like what is published in a book, if your going to customize it you may as well customize it to your gun.

So, someone stop me if I'm going to blow myself up but here is the plan.

1. I have measured my chamber using the following method and found it to be 1.229 (edited)

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/124758-finding-max-oal.html

2. I'm thinking I will build the rounds to 1.227 (Edited) to keep the round off of the rifling and relieve the initial pressure. I know half of the reloading world will tell me it is too long but it's what rifle reloaders do on a normal basis. It also does appear to feed fine from the magazines.

3. I'll start my loads at 4.1 and build them up watching for pressure issues.

4. My expectation is that I'll be well above the posted 4.3 maximum due to my extended OAL.

Thoughts?

Edited May 11, 2012 by ChuckB

[njl]

Kalaur, what your saying makes a lot of sense. Why make a custom round exactly like what is published in a book, if your going to customize it you may as well customize it to your gun.

So, someone stop me if I'm going to blow myself up but here is the plan.

1. I have measured my chamber using the following method and found it to be 1.129

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/124758-finding-max-oal.html

2. I'm thinking I will build the rounds to 1.127 to keep the round off of the rifling and relieve the initial pressure. I know half of the reloading world will tell me it is too long but it's what rifle reloaders do on a normal basis. It also does appear to feed fine from the magazines.

3. I'll start my loads at 4.1 and build them up watching for pressure issues.

4. My expectation is that I'll be well above the posted 4.3 maximum due to my extended OAL.

Thoughts?

1.127 is so close to 1.129 that with the normal variation you get loading rounds, you're likely to get some too long if you aim for 1.127. I'd maybe aim for 1.120.

I'm not convinced loading to the max OAL your barrel/chamber/bullet allows provides any accuracy benefit for pistols. With some bullets, I've seen accuracy improved by shortening the OAL.

[Merlin Orr]

I got chrono'ed at an IDPA match with 200 Laser Cast leads at 186 PF using Clays. Never saw any sign of primer flattening. Don't know the length - just a thumbnail thickness of the shoulder (SWC) past the case.

[kalaur]

Kalaur, what your saying makes a lot of sense. Why make a custom round exactly like what is published in a book, if your going to customize it you may as well customize it to your gun.

So, someone stop me if I'm going to blow myself up but here is the plan.

1. I have measured my chamber using the following method and found it to be 1.129

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/124758-finding-max-oal.html

2. I'm thinking I will build the rounds to 1.127 to keep the round off of the rifling and relieve the initial pressure. I know half of the reloading world will tell me it is too long but it's what rifle reloaders do on a normal basis. It also does appear to feed fine from the magazines.

3. I'll start my loads at 4.1 and build them up watching for pressure issues.

4. My expectation is that I'll be well above the posted 4.3 maximum due to my extended OAL.

Thoughts?

You measured and it came to 1.129? You were already loading longer than this, your OP shows 1.250... I'd suggest going shorter than what fits in your barrel by 10 (.010) thousandths or more. Rifle reloaders can get away with bullets just in front of the lands because their loading on single stage presses, and are not running on the ragged edge with fast powders like us pistol reloaders. With my 1050, as I just start and just finish a reloading batch, there are rounds that come off the press that vary 10 thou or more (.010) until the shellplate fills up.

Other than OAL, your plan sounds solid, but I'd probably be looking for a slower powder ;-)

I'm also curious, what is the reason for wanting to develop a load around clays?

Edited May 11, 2012 by kalaur

[ChuckB]

Sorry, typo 1.229. Also my compensation should have been in the hundredths not the thousands. So my OAL would be 1.119 or 1.109. If we round for sanity that puts me right at the often recommended 1.22 or 1.20. Loading to 1.22 gives me the ability to fluctuate .005 in either direction and still be within most recommended OALs (Hodgdon published length is 1.225). A lot of work to get to a standard published or recommended load but at least I know the data behind the OAL.

Edited May 11, 2012 by ChuckB

[kalaur]

Seems like your OAL is still not right. Your original post showed 1.250, your last post shows anywhere from 1.229 to 1.109, thats a HUGE difference OAL. Make sure you've got your OAL correct before you start loading, having a mixup like that while loading could cause a KB.

I still say something sounds wonky, since if you were loading longer than what you found in that xdtalk post (OAL from your original post), otherwise your original rounds would have been engaging the rifling.

I suggest trying the plunk test with a long loaded dummy round and shortening until it fully seats in your chamber (be sure to remove flare before testing in the chamber), and verify this with what you found by using the method in the xdtalk post.

Hodgdon published length is 1.225 for LEAD SWC bullets, and they have load data for 200 GR. Speer JHP. Neither of these are similar to your bullets. You need to be careful referencing load data, because OALs are not interchangeable for other styles/brands of bullets. Bullets even of the same type vary greatly in profile and length, which all affects the OAL you should be running with them.