Muzzle direction during reloads

[madmike283]

Hey all, I'm a shooter new to IDPA/etc competition. I've been training a bit over the winter and now have picked up IDPA and shot a local "Combat League" match last night. I have a question regarding muzzle direction during reloads. My closest local IDPA club and the combat league both are very adamant about having a level muzzle at all times. The combat league is indoors. I haven't tried USPSA yet, so I'm not sure what their policy is. I've learned/trained to do reloads up in my work space with the muzzle canted upward and to the side slightly to see the magwell, etc. Isn't that common practice, or am I training and developing incorrect movements for this game? Do your local clubs and major matches for that matter require that the muzzle be level with the ground at all times even during reloads, etc?

Thanks for the info. I don't guess there's much I can do about it if I choose to continue shooting their matches. I wanted to get an idea if that's typical or not.

[PistoleroJesse]

Not normal for an outdoor range, but I can see where an indoor range might require that.

It's hard to balance match safety in IDPA (no 180 rule) with openness to the public as well.

If it were up to me though, shooter liability for each round is the answer to this apparent drift towards nannyism by ranges.

[A45100]

Mike, Sorry to hear you're getting such grief about your reloads. I'm not sure why the IDPA club you shoot with are making you do your reloads the way they are, there's nothing in the rule book about doing your reloads that way. I shoot IDPA and USPSA both and I do my reloads the same in either. You mentioned that you do your reloads in front of your face so you can see your magwell. Regardless who you take a competition class from they are going to tell you the same thing. While I can see the indoor range wanting you to do your reloads level with your muzzle pointed at the bullet trap, I'd say you need to find some other clubs to shoot with that have a clue. Just be sure of one thing in USPSA, when you do that unload and you have just engaged targets on your hard left, be sure of where that muzzle is pointed. I got bounced out of a local match for that little 180 violation.

[BikeNGun]

Avoiding aiming the muzzle upward is not an IDPA rule, it's a range rule. Depending on where you are, maybe even a common sense one.

Aiming the muzzle up is common practice in Magpul DVDs and at ranges that are nowhere near civilization. Ranges anywhere near neighborhoods that are worried about a loose round hitting someone's home are a lot pickier about the direction of your muzzle. Both outdoor ranges that I've shot IDPA at around here (SE Pennsylvania) have had the "keep the muzzle into the berm" rule.

Remember that a round aimed upward can travel a couple of miles and still kill on impact. The ranges justifiably care more about safety and liability than about how you cut a second off your reload.

[Bulbvivid]

Aiming the muzzle up is common practice in Magpul DVDs and at ranges that are nowhere near civilization.

Just as an aside, it's also part of the reloading method taught by at least two of the co-founders of the IDPA.

[JeremyM]

you can still reload in your work space without pointing the muzzle up. cant your wrist keeping the muzzle below the berm, as this is a rule as most ranges.

hope this helps

[mikegot38]

Reload the way you are and just keep you finger out of the trigger guard. No finger on trigger, no bang but certain clubs do not seem to understand this. Enjoy!

[Chills1994]

are you sure this is a for real bona fide IDPA club?

not "IDPA lite"?

not "IDPA style"?

If it is a sanctioned club, then you need to bump it up the chain to the state level "area coordinator" and then onto Robert Ray, if necessary.

this same issue has been addressed, heated-ly, with respect to USPSA clubs and so called "local range rules".

I am thinking that a satisfactory outcome has never been reached. But I could be wrong.

whenever this issue comes up, I make it a point to post these two pics:

The top pic is former USPSA President Michael Voigt. The bottom pic is Jerry "The Burner"Barnhart.

[Model19]

I have to disagree on Chills assessment. IDPA cannot tell a club that their own safety rules are invalid. Here in Maine, the Scarborough club, home of the state's SO trainer and state championship match, has a "no higher than berm level" rule that is strictly enforced. What was once a farm country setting is now developed on all sides in fairly close proximity. The rule, while a pain for those who train muzzle high, makes sense and is evenly enforced, so complaints are few. Would you rather have a well run place like that to shoot real IDPA (which it is)at or have the club shut down due to an AD that caused damage off the property, in the name of a half second quicker reload?

Learn to reload both ways so you can shoot anywhere.

[jar]

I have to disagree on Chills assessment. IDPA cannot tell a club that their own safety rules are invalid. Here in Maine, the Scarborough club, home of the state's SO trainer and state championship match, has a "no higher than berm level" rule that is strictly enforced. What was once a farm country setting is now developed on all sides in fairly close proximity. The rule, while a pain for those who train muzzle high, makes sense and is evenly enforced, so complaints are few. Would you rather have a well run place like that to shoot real IDPA (which it is)at or have the club shut down due to an AD that caused damage off the property, in the name of a half second quicker reload?

Learn to reload both ways so you can shoot anywhere.

Complaints are few people the people who don't like the rule choose not to shoot there.

[waktasz]

If the IDPA rule regarding finger in the trigger guard was more strict (not just a PE or a warning for the first offense) and more strictly enforced this issue would not be an issue. IMO way more people should be getting DQ'd at weekly matches for finger violations but it seems to get overlooked often.

[madmike283]

Thanks for the info guys. I saw lots of discussion about this in the USPSA section. I should have looked before I asked.

This is a sanctioned IDPA club, the outdoor one. I assume it's a range rule that the IDPA club enforces, although I'm not certain. It seems a bit excessive though. The rule is muzzle horizontal, not even "in the berm". The indoor is not an IDPA club.

I guess I'll try some dry-fire practice to see how it feels keeping the muzzle level. If not, I guess I'll look into alternative places to shoot.

[Chills1994]

I have to disagree on Chills assessment. IDPA cannot tell a club that their own safety rules are invalid. Here in Maine, the Scarborough club, home of the state's SO trainer and state championship match, has a "no higher than berm level" rule that is strictly enforced. What was once a farm country setting is now developed on all sides in fairly close proximity. The rule, while a pain for those who train muzzle high, makes sense and is evenly enforced, so complaints are few. Would you rather have a well run place like that to shoot real IDPA (which it is)at or have the club shut down due to an AD that caused damage off the property, in the name of a half second quicker reload?

Learn to reload both ways so you can shoot anywhere.

could you please point out where I said anything those lines?

I said it should get bumped up the chain.

Let them decide what they want to do with it.

[Model19]

could you please point out where I said anything those lines?

I said it should get bumped up the chain.

Let them decide what they want to do with it.

One could easily interpret your "bumped up the chain" statement as saying that HQ can overrule a clubs own safety rules. One of my points is that as all shooters have to follow the same rules in a case like this, the playing field is level for all, so let the games go on. Why complain if one can understand the need for the rule at that location?

When I took the SO course at the club I mentioned in my state, I was reminded of their muzzle parallel to the ground rule on my first reload too..and I'm a revo shooter. Oops. How the hell do I reload this thing that way? I got the job done. Slowly, but in accordance with the club rules.

[Chills1994]

the higher highers at IDPA HQ would most likely at best just take it under advisement.

In my opinion, ...err....whoops ...let me back up...

I haven't seen what club paperwork and/or petition has to be signed by anyone or 8 to 10 prospective members as part of charter paperwork to get an IDPA club started.

I am of the opinion that if the local people knew of this rule already in place, and went forward and requested IDPA sanctioning, not disclosing this local club/range rule wasn't exactly forthcoming/honest, in my opinion... there is some technical legal jargon I recently came across ...something...something ....fraud....or something enticement to commit fraud....blah...blah...

in some respects, IDPA/USPSA/Steel Challenge clubs are a lot like McDonald's franchises, in my opinion... Let's say you want to open a Mickey Dee's somewhere. Obviously Mickey Dee's HQ has things spelled out contractually that your store/restaurant has to look like this, that, and the other thing. well, if you can't put up a set of golden arches in front of your restaurant, then again, in my opinion... McDonald's HQ has every right to cancel their contract with you.

would IDPA HQ ever do anything about it?

nahhh...I seriously doubt it.

they like that membership money coming in too much.

[Model19]

I have not seen the club papers either, they were done before I got involved. Since the rules do not specifically get into reload techniques in the manner we're discussing, I doubt there is any kind of clause that says shooters must be able reload in any physical fashion they desire or you can't be an IDPA club. '

This discussion is sort of like the Feds can't tell a State what to do all the time debate.

IMHO, and that's all it is, anybody who gets miffed by a local rule like this and calls a protest needs to remember this is only a game. If all rules are followed as set forth in the book, then why is it not IPDA? After all, the rules DO NOT say that a local club cannot have a rule like this.

If the rule is applied to all, once again, it's fair to all. Not allowing muzzle high reloads hardly negates the "true intent" of the IDPA game, correct?

And why are those guys in your pictures not wearing cover garments and why is all their gear in the wrong place? :-)

I think we can agree on the fact that HQ will not react due to the very reasons you gave.

Geoff

[ChristianHE]

If the IDPA rule regarding finger in the trigger guard was more strict (not just a PE or a warning for the first offense) and more strictly enforced this issue would not be an issue. IMO way more people should be getting DQ'd at weekly matches for finger violations but it seems to get overlooked often.

I most definitely agree. I see fingers in there at every match, a warning is given, then next stage I see it again. (and I'm not ROing) Nothing like a DQ and then being under the pressure of future DQs to make folks change to safe handling. Especially since everyone seems to be getting drop-in trigger kits, which makes it even more dangerous.

[Chills1994]

Model 19 wrote:

I have not seen the club papers either, they were done before I got involved. Since the rules do not specifically get into reload techniques in the manner we're discussing, I doubt there is any kind of clause that says shooters must be able reload in any physical fashion they desire or you can't be an IDPA club. 'agreed! IDPA HQ would have no idea to ask in the first place. the best resolution is to get the local range's BoD stacked with a bunch of IDPA'ers who want to reload like normal. A good compromise would be to add in the local rule that a finger in the trigger guard while moving or reloading or clearing a jam means an automatic DQ.

This discussion is sort of like the Feds can't tell a State what to do all the time debate. Well, I never did teach Constitutional Law, nor was I an editor for a legal newsletter, but that camel got his nose under the tent way back when by citing the interstate commerce clause. Some legal precedence was set way, way back when, and since then, has been leveraged for all sorts of things.

IMHO, and that's all it is, anybody who gets miffed by a local rule like this and calls a protest needs to remember this is only a game.oh! brother! you should see or hear some of the things I have heard people protesting about. for example, one nationals level MD had to station a staff member at a stage with an electric motor driven mover. this staff member had a clipboard and pen with him, and a stop watch, and he had to write down the times it took for the mover to cross some open span. The MD did this because sure enough, somebody complained that its movement was erratic. The MD had the recorded times to show this "competitor". If all rules are followed as set forth in the book, then why is it not IPDA? After all, the rules DO NOT say that a local club cannot have a rule like this.as I am sure you are plenty aware of, the IDPA rulebook is or has been going through a maturation process of sorts. that is actually a thread in and of itself.

If the rule is applied to all, once again, it's fair to all. if there is a club website, I hope it says that you guys have that rule before somebody new drives like 2 hours one way, and this new guy has been watching youtube videos on how to do reloads,and is a little geeked out over your rule when it is his turn to shoot.Not allowing muzzle high reloads hardly negates the "true intent" of the IDPA game, correct? uggh....now you have hit upon the major pet peeve I have with most IDPA'ers. I have never met Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn, so, NO! I don't have a clue as to what their "true intent" was, or what the "spirit" of IDPA is. that has been one of my recommendations in that other thread, to strike the word "spirit" from the IDPA rulebook, entirely. only go buy the black and white letters of the rulebook.

And why are those guys in your pictures not wearing cover garments and why is all their gear in the wrong place? :-) I know you're being funny, but really, I just haven't taken the time to save a pic of say Bob Vogel or Dave Sevigny doing a reload at IDPA Nat's/Worlds.

I think we can agree on the fact that HQ will not react due to the very reasons you gave. according to Michael Bane's blog, IDPA is bringing in 800 to 900 new members each month. What are yearly membership dues now? 40 bucks? cha ching!

Geoff

[Model19]

Exactly to all your comments.

And I will add that at my club, we allow the muzzle high reload!

[shootaglock]

Does anyone see a situation where IDPA would force a club/range to allow a practice that they don't view as safe? One, a good many clubs would not allow IPDA at their ranges. Two, it would shift a measure of liability to IDPA. I don't think IDPA wants either one of these things. If safety is the responsibility of the local range and MD, which it is, then they have to have the ability to adjust safety measures to fit their needs.

I expect that if this became a big enough issue, IDPA would have to take the stance of putting in a rule that would fit as many clubs as possible. The no muzzle high rule is not uncommon. Unfortunately, the litigious society that we live in forces us to constantly look at the worse case scenario.

[waktasz]

USPSA does it...

[John Z Sr]

If the IDPA rule regarding finger in the trigger guard was more strict (not just a PE or a warning for the first offense) and more strictly enforced this issue would not be an issue. IMO way more people should be getting DQ'd at weekly matches for finger violations but it seems to get overlooked often.

Very well stated my friend !!

[SauconValley Shooter]

Good Morning,

Thank you for the heads up. I will certainly not shoot the Maine State IDPA Championship in the future. I have thought about it a few times but it did not fit into my plans. I also do not recall ever seeing anything in the match information about the muzzle direction rule. I would be really angry to make a trip to Maine and then find out I have to totally change my revolver reload.

[Mitch Harrington]

What's next? You can't run with a loaded gun cuz it's unsafe? If it's unsafe to perform a reload pointed over a berm, what about while running to the next position? I keep the muzzle up while moving.

All of this was sarcastic, of course. I just question a sanctioned club adding rules to ANY shooting sport. We all show up to sanctioned matches because we know what to expect from the style of match and rule set.

[Mitch Harrington]

ETA: I understand the safety concern for the club. I see two solutions. Have higher berms or dont have sanctioned matches.