Time Allowed?

[DarthMuffin]

The RO has the power to ask the current shooter to Stop, ULSC, ask him to come back when really ready, and proceed to the next shooter. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't, right?

If it really bugs you and you think someone is taking so unreasonably long that they're delaying the match and hurting the sport by making it less pleasant for other shooters, then stop them. Or turn around and loudly ask the whole squad if they think he/she's taking too long. Either the peer pressure will speed him up or they'll agree you should stop him or you apologize and there's no problem. We don't need another rule.

If they keep doing it every time just to be an a** about it (a USPSA fillibuster?), piss people off or gain an advantage (like the waiting for a cloud example) that's unsportsman-like conduct and we have a rule for that.

Edited May 2, 2012 by DarthMuffin

[EEH]

for me I don't take a lot of time to make ready,,,maybe I should start doing it a little slower,most -M- and GM - I see do it and a lot of really good A shooters,,just to get the stage in my mind one last time ????--but as an ro,I have never told anyone to lets go--

[sperman]

Realize that the majority of the highly successful sports in this world have time limits for everything... Ex: basketball foul shots...football play clock...baseball hitters time between pitches...golfer time for shots...etc

Except for the football play clock, I'm not aware of any of the time limits you've mentioned. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen a referee start counting the seconds after passing the ball to the shooter.

[Ben Stoeger]

Wow! I didn't realize this would draw so many quality comments...thanks everyone!

Personally I like how Jim said it... Everyone need some time but at some point you need to shoot. IMHO you should be fully ready when you come to the line.

Realize that the majority of the highly successful sports in this world have time limits for everything... Ex: basketball foul shots...football play clock...baseball hitters time between pitches...golfer time for shots...etc

Perhaps my math is wrong...but take a match with 500 shooters...and 10 stages...

10 seconds to MR > 10sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 50000sec which is converted to 13.89 hours

30 seconds to MR > 30sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 150000sec which is converted to 41.67 hours

That's a huge time increase....

It is pretty amazing that you can have facts and figures to back up the point of view that we need to do something to cut down on shooters make ready time yet the reality is totally different. Like I said before, IPSC has gone down this road only to have it not make any difference.

[motosapiens]

Fortunately this doesn't seem to be a problem around here. Even the few masters I have seen are ready within a 10-15 seconds. I suspect the proper way to deal with someone taking really excessive time would be simple group mockery. It might not change anything, but it would at least give us something amusing to do while we wait.

[aztecdriver]

Wow! I didn't realize this would draw so many quality comments...thanks everyone!

Personally I like how Jim said it... Everyone need some time but at some point you need to shoot. IMHO you should be fully ready when you come to the line.

Realize that the majority of the highly successful sports in this world have time limits for everything... Ex: basketball foul shots...football play clock...baseball hitters time between pitches...golfer time for shots...etc

Perhaps my math is wrong...but take a match with 500 shooters...and 10 stages...

10 seconds to MR > 10sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 50000sec which is converted to 13.89 hours

30 seconds to MR > 30sec * 500shooters * 10stages = 150000sec which is converted to 41.67 hours

That's a huge time increase....

It is pretty amazing that you can have facts and figures to back up the point of view that we need to do something to cut down on shooters make ready time yet the reality is totally different. Like I said before, IPSC has gone down this road only to have it not make any difference.

The numbers are skewed slightly - considering 10 squads are running concurrently - it's unfair to the numbers to not run them in parallel - so the real numbers - by his analysis are somewhere in the 1.389 to 4.167 hr. That's assuming every single shooter did it - and that's not reality. Reality is that a very few number of shooters take forever - i've never seen one that pushed my limits, that doesn't mean it doesn't occur - but rushing someone to get ready is very counter to performance and to be honest, the freestyle component of the sport - IMHO. I'd rather not make assumptions of a problem that could exist, but doesn't occur regularly and feel it's something that needs to be addressed with a rule.

There's other bigger time grabbers at matches. People that don't help reset. A couple of reshoots are much more trying to the clock than someone taking a few extra seconds to clear they're mind...

[AZGunut]

I personally hate when people take forever to load and make ready. Funny thing is around here they are also the ones who walk the stage after every shooter and who rarely help reset or tape. Must be a coincidence?

[PKT1106]

Realize that the majority of the highly successful sports in this world have time limits for everything... Ex: basketball foul shots...football play clock...baseball hitters time between pitches...golfer time for shots...etc

Except for the football play clock, I'm not aware of any of the time limits you've mentioned. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen a referee start counting the seconds after passing the ball to the shooter.

Basketball foul shots - 10sec to shoot after getting the ball

Baseball - Rule 8.04 - Pitcher must deliver the ball within 12 seconds of the batter entering the box. On the flip side, the umpire can also penalize the batter for not getting into the batter’s box in a timely manner. This rule is 6.02 which states “the batter shall take his position in the batter’s box promptly when it is time at bat.” If the batter attempts to leave the batter’s box, the umpire can still allow the pitch to count and call “ball” or “strike”.

Golfer time - They capped it at 45 sec after Sergio Garcia came onto the scene.

[Ben Stoeger]

Ok guys... here is a really bad offender.

[Skydiver]

Ok guys... here is a really bad offender.

LOL! Maybe I should have driven up for that match...

I've also see him go straight to loading and holstering and be ready to rock after hearing "Make Ready". Depends on whether our squad will be running up against the squad ahead of us and/or there is a squad running up behind up. Those two guys on the video are actually great ROs who know how to keep a squad moving through a stage without it feeling like "work".

[Ben Stoeger]

Ok guys... here is a really bad offender.

LOL! Maybe I should have driven up for that match...

I've also see him go straight to loading and holstering and be ready to rock after hearing "Make Ready". Depends on whether our squad will be running up against the squad ahead of us and/or there is a squad running up behind up. Those two guys on the video are actually great ROs who know how to keep a squad moving through a stage without it feeling like "work".

He is just having fun with them. There is a contest going to see who can take the longest from "Make Ready" to "Beep".... all thanks to this thread.

[EmanP]

Hey, it was a complicated stage.

[Onagoth]

Unsportsmenlike conduct?

As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Onagoth

[Flexmoney]

Unsportsmenlike conduct?

As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly.

No.

Just no.

[PKT1106]

Hey, it was a complicated stage.

I never saw you take that long before I moved out of WA. When did you get so OCD? Did that rub of on TJ as well? What about poor Torey? Think of the civilians, MAN!!!

[juan]

simple solution start timer at make ready and when the shooter assumes the start position open the starting gate.

[remoandiris]

Unsportsmenlike conduct?

As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly.

No.

Just no.

+1.

[Nik Habicht]

Unsportsmenlike conduct?

As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly.

And at that point what do you do when the competitor repeatedly states "Not Ready?"

Or when he requests a different RO?

The longest of routines in my experience are more than balanced out by the shortest of routines. I also don't worry a lot about the length of the MR routine; I worry more about total stage clearance time....

[aztecdriver]

He is just having fun with them. There is a contest going to see who can take the longest from "Make Ready" to "Beep".... all thanks to this thread.

And whats even more clear is as almost comical the clip is - it's still 1min 32sec in total length.

As Obi Wan jedi mind tricks to you - "These aren't the match problems you are looking for -- move along."

[HoMiE]

This reminds me of people who take extra time on the tee box during golf and all the extra practice swings, getting the perfect grip and stance...only to step up and shank the ball into the trees. Then my buddy would yell out, thanks. Now I know how much time it takes to suck.

[EmanP]

The ironic part is, it screwed me up. I was paying more attention to trying to waste as much time as possable rather than what I was about to do. So much for that classifier.

[theycallmeingot]

The ironic part is, it screwed me up. I was paying more attention to trying to waste as much time as possable rather than what I was about to do. So much for that classifier.

sandbagger.

[Onagoth]

Unsportsmenlike conduct?

As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly.

No.

Just no.

Unsportsmenlike conduct?

As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly.

And at that point what do you do when the competitor repeatedly states "Not Ready?"

Or when he requests a different RO?

The longest of routines in my experience are more than balanced out by the shortest of routines. I also don't worry a lot about the length of the MR routine; I worry more about total stage clearance time....

I wasn't being truly serious, just had a thought.

Having said that, if this happened in an outlaw match where I am the MD, I'd be punting him from the starting box and telling him to come back when he's ready.

I don't host huge matches by any means, but keeping them running smoothly is always a challenge. An unneccesarily long MR routine is the same as not helping to patch and reset targets. it only slows the match down.

I like this about IDPA. No rehearsals.

This is just my opinion, obviously not supported by the ruleset in either IPSC or USPSA

Edited May 8, 2012 by Onagoth

[38supPat]

Unsportsmenlike conduct?

As a range official, I think advising a shooter to hurry up is reasonable and keeps the match running smoothly.

Awwww, am I going to have to get Phil to review your RO status?...lol

Unsportsmanlike cannot be used as a catchall for people doing stuff you don't like. While some folks get their shorts in a knot over this it really doesn't affect the overall running of the match. Look at it this way, we don't see a lot of guys doing this up here, in fact IPSC prohibits much of it (sight pictures etc) but our Provincials takes 5 days to put 200 shooters through the match. Most US matches put 300+ shooters through in 3 days in a similar sized match and they do allow this. I think we need to look at other aspects of how we run a match and why it takes so long to put shooters through. Resetting is one part, I notice a lot more guys up here don't help compared to major matches in the US. Some are GM wannabees who think the big boys don't patch....I suggest they try that on a real super squad sometime and see how it goes over. SOmetimes its the MD's fault, I was at one match where the MD was yelling for guys to patch and no one was...problem was he had three stages on one bay running concurrently. They'd run one stage after another with a different shooter on each one. Problem was they had a ten man squad with hot shooter per stage, one on deck shooter per stage and one guy who just shot and is cleaning mags and getting ready to shoot the next one per stage, leaving one guy on the whole squad to patch everything.

We need to look at how we run matches up here but LAMR is not the problem, when the shooter is called to the line it is his stage. Leave him be.

[Flexmoney]

Having said that, if this happened in an outlaw match where I am the MD, I'd be punting him from the starting box and telling him to come back when he's ready.

The problem with that is...is kinda screws over the next guy/gal that is up.

Especially if they are doing good by knocking out much of their pre-run routine in their head while they are "on-deck" for 3-minute shooter turn.