.40 180gr FMJ Major loads - Clays v.s. N310

[CHA-LEE]

Currently I am using Clays in my .40 Major loads with a really long OAL (1.225) to keep it "safe". I still experience case head separations every once in a while (1 in 15K - 20K rounds) but then again I use mixed range brass so who knows if the cases are failing because of crappy or worn out brass or if Clays is just lashing back at me. I really like the soft recoil impulse that Clays produces but I don't like how temperature sensitive it can be. I gave VV N320 a try and setup a load that produced the same fps as the Clays load but the N320 had a noticeably harsher recoil feel. The recoil difference is not majorly different, but its noticeable. So I figured that I would give VV N310 a try since it faster than N320 but has the same clean burning and temperature resistance qualities.

I have read a bunch of different threads on this forum about the good and bad of using N310 in .40 Major loads. The comments vary from one extreme to another. People either love it and have no issues, or hate it because its too fast and considered "Not Safe". What I didn't really see is a direct comparison between Clays and N310. Using either of these powders in .40 Major loads is considered "Dancing with the Devil" but from your opinion, which one would be the lesser of two evils? Also, what is the felt recoil difference between these two powders?

[TISCHLJ]

I have been using vv310 for years in .40 with great results- very consistent powder drops- 180gr zero jhp at 1.200-1.215 OAL around 4.5 grains . . . never used Clays, but I have a friend that swears by it.

I use range mixed brass- no case head separations . . .

I think the inconsistent powder drops with Clays may contribute to the known issues.

[jmbaccolyte]

116 views and only one reply, afraid it's beyond most of us. I learn something pretty much everyday here. If it's not too much thread drift, I've got some questions: I've read that using the heavier bullets with the faster powders cuts down on the safety margin more than using the lighter bullets, are you thinking about trying different bullet weights? Do you keep close track on how many times you've fired each case and how powerful each reload was? Do some brands of cases seem to last longer than others or do some wear out faster than most? I assume your pistol has better case support than say the pre-Gen 4 Glocks, what pistol are you using with this? Have you seen inconsistent powder drops with Clays and what powder measure are you using? And when you had the case separation, what happened?

Edited April 28, 2012 by jmbaccolyte

[Joe4d]

the no replys are because people are asking "why" to many tried and trues that work day in and day out to push the envelope, SOME case head separations is not good. I have been reloading thousands of rounds a year for 20 years and have Never had one. What are you actually gaining that makes a hoot on the timer ? You are risking catastrophic failure to gain what ? I shoot range brass, never keep track of counts, a quick visual tells me if it is good or not, easily make decent soft shooting ammo with powders like TG and WST.

[jmbaccolyte]

It seems that the forum is big enough to support differing opinions. I'm certain CHA-LEE, Joe4d, and TISCHLJ are above my skill level. But it seems to me that the higher you go, the harder you have to work for the next little increment of improvement. At my skill level, it wouldn't be a good idea to push the envelope like CHA-LEE is doing for a small gain, but it makes sense for an upper level guy.

MHO, YMMV.

[JeremyM]

N310 on a 40 load makes me nervous. I like it for my 9. Lesser of 2 evils...Clays. Titegroup may be worth considering

[Joe4d]

actually the upper level guys dont care and realize chasing the flavor of the week doesnt matter. Practice, transitions, moving into and setting up on a position is a much more productive use of time and energy.

[pivoproseem]

I gave up on the Clays after 2 case head separations in my Tanfo. Solo 1000 has been my powder since, and I cannot complain about the recoil. Even loaded short for a CZ TS, it has given me no issues.

[CocoBolo]

If you want to reduce the felt recoil stop playing with those hard to drive bullets. For a Tanfo, CZ, or Sig, black bullets can be a problem, but I've run the Bayou Bullets with them no problem. Try some bayou bullets with 4.5gr of N320, that is 1/2gr down from a jacketed load and you can feel the difference. You could use WST as a backup powder.

Most range brass is ok, the problem is you just keep loading the same ones over and over, and over again, till they blow up, try using some for a while then give them up and use a different bunch. I had this problem when I'd shoot a match come home tumble them then roload the same ones for the next match, with 8 matches a month it wasn't long till I started getting case splits and top blow offs. The will hold up for a while but they do fatigue.

[CHA-LEE]

Still looking for answers to my two questions.

[CHA-LEE]

Since I had to figure this one out myself I felt that I should post up my results. I tried the VV N310 powder and couldn't get it to make Major PF before it started showing extremely flat primers. I stopped at 4.6gr using a 1.225 OAL with a Rainier Ballistics 180gr FMJ. This produced an average velocity of 915fps which is just under Major PF for the 180gr bullets. The N310 powder had a very soft felt recoil compared to Clays pushing 935fps.

I ended up switching over to Winchester Super Target (WST) with a 5.5gr drop using the same bullet and OAL and this produced the same felt recoil as Clays and had zero signs of over pressure.

[RH45]

Since I had to figure this one out myself I felt that I should post up my results. I tried the VV N310 powder and couldn't get it to make Major PF before it started showing extremely flat primers. I stopped at 4.6gr using a 1.225 OAL with a Rainier Ballistics 180gr FMJ. This produced an average velocity of 915fps which is just under Major PF for the 180gr bullets. The N310 powder had a very soft felt recoil compared to Clays pushing 935fps.

I ended up switching over to Winchester Super Target (WST) with a 5.5gr drop using the same bullet and OAL and this produced the same felt recoil as Clays and had zero signs of over pressure.

I quit using Clays, even in .45 because of the Temperature sensitivity issue. I tried 310 in 9mm and .40, and didn't get good results. I'm playing with 310 for .45, but, I really haven't played with it enough to decide if I'm going to stick with it, or not.

How does WST meter? I'm guessing, that being a shotgun powder, it is flakes, like Clays. Have you found any temperature sensitivity issues with it?

[Aric]

Since I had to figure this one out myself I felt that I should post up my results. I tried the VV N310 powder and couldn't get it to make Major PF before it started showing extremely flat primers. I stopped at 4.6gr using a 1.225 OAL with a Rainier Ballistics 180gr FMJ. This produced an average velocity of 915fps which is just under Major PF for the 180gr bullets. The N310 powder had a very soft felt recoil compared to Clays pushing 935fps.

I ended up switching over to Winchester Super Target (WST) with a 5.5gr drop using the same bullet and OAL and this produced the same felt recoil as Clays and had zero signs of over pressure.

Did you use small pistol or small rifle primers?

I was able to buy several pounds of N310. I have had good luck with 200gr projectiles and N310. However, I have several thousand 180gr projectiles on hand that I would like to use with this powder if possible.

[CHA-LEE]

I was using Winchester Small Pistol primers. Using Small Rifle Primers would reduce the "Flat" primer situation, but all it does is mask the issue of there being an extreme pressure spike while trying to push the VV N310 powder safely into Major Power Factor velocities. Masking the flat primer issue or not, you are still dancing with the devil. Using N310 with 200gr bullets would probably work since you need less powder to make major. But pushing 180gr bullets fast enough is risky. When I was researching this, the only guys that were reliably using N310 with 180gr bullets were shooting them through 6 inch barrel guns, which will produce more velocity with the same powder drop verses a 5 inch barrel gun.

Since starting this thread 3 years ago, I ended up settling on using Winchester Super Target (WST) and am still happy with it. I have probably shot 75K - 100K of WST since 2012 and have had ZERO issues associated with over pressure events. Unlike Clays that would result in a KABOOM once or twice every 10K or so. Based on what I observed with N310 it would have produced the same unreliability as Clays if I tried to push it to major velocities.

That being said, N310 seems to work great for .40 Minor loads. Its mouse fart soft using 200gr bullets. My wife loves shooting that minor ammo because its so soft.