Sarge Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 NROI Rulings Title:Removing holster and/or holster from person while handgun still in the holster.Created:12/02/08Updated:12/09/08Effective:12/09/08Rule number:5.2.1Applies to:PistolRuling authority:John AmidonStatus:ReleasedQuestionAfter I have been unloaded and shown clear on the line by an RO, can I go back to my bag and remove my holster and/or blet with the holster attached while the handgun is still in the holsterRulingA competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes his/her holster or his/her equipment belt with his/her handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. Safety areas are provided for doing this while not under the supervision of a RO. Not that this happened recently or anything. Let's say a competitor needs to make a semi emergency visit to the porta pottie. If I understand the ruling the RO can supervise them removing the entire rig. Correct? Then does the RO have to watch the rig, until the shooter is available to put it back on? When the shooter is available to retrieve the rig do they have to get the RO to supervise putting it back on? Keep in mind this hypothetical event probably took place at a local match where there are not safety areas every hundred yards or so. I'm thinking they can remove it under supervision. It can be left grounded. RO must supervise picking it back up and putting it on. I also think it should be situation dependent. i.e If a shooter can get to a safety area and then to the facilities they should. But if they are in some kind of distress they should ask for RO assistance. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 The correct procedure is you go to the safety area, bag your gun then go to the facilities. However, I don't know many MD's that have extra RO's assigned to that area of the range to determine shooter actions. Your gamble. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dart368 Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I have seen people go into the porta-potty with their rig on in the middle of a match (I am assuming to go pee). They MIGHT be taking it off to go poop for all I know and no one else would know. And then for pee, how does that apply to female shooters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) I've left my rig on with gun holstered to go pee, is that a DQ'able offense? For clarification, the pants stay up and the belt stays on. Edited April 23, 2012 by jdphotoguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I've left my rig on with gun holstered to go pee, is that a DQ'able offense? For clarification, the pants stay up and the belt stays on. This is one of those really intelligent strings , no DQ, as long as you keep the gun holstered and the holster secured to your person. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 NROI Rulings Title:Removing holster and/or holster from person while handgun still in the holster.Created:12/02/08Updated:12/09/08Effective:12/09/08Rule number:5.2.1Applies to:PistolRuling authority:John AmidonStatus:ReleasedQuestionAfter I have been unloaded and shown clear on the line by an RO, can I go back to my bag and remove my holster and/or blet with the holster attached while the handgun is still in the holsterRulingA competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes his/her holster or his/her equipment belt with his/her handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. Safety areas are provided for doing this while not under the supervision of a RO. Not that this happened recently or anything. Let's say a competitor needs to make a semi emergency visit to the porta pottie. If I understand the ruling the RO can supervise them removing the entire rig. Correct? Then does the RO have to watch the rig, until the shooter is available to put it back on? When the shooter is available to retrieve the rig do they have to get the RO to supervise putting it back on? Keep in mind this hypothetical event probably took place at a local match where there are not safety areas every hundred yards or so. I'm thinking they can remove it under supervision. It can be left grounded. RO must supervise picking it back up and putting it on. I also think it should be situation dependent. i.e If a shooter can get to a safety area and then to the facilities they should. But if they are in some kind of distress they should ask for RO assistance. Thoughts? Theoretically yes. Realistically, my answer would almost always be "there's the safety table, feel free to leave your blaster there." Really -- it's best practice, in everything but the most unusual of circumstances, to follow the normal way of doing things. Shooters normally gear up and gear down at the safety table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 And then there's the side debate whether somebody can be DQ'd for generic unsafe gun handling for leaving a gun unattended at a safety table... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I take my gun with me into the porta-potty. Other sensible way to handle it, go to safety table, bag gun, give bag to other shooter, do your business, then reassemble in reverse. If there aren't enough safety areas, then the club should designate more. We have one right across the access road from the porta potties (10' away). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Where I shoot the portapotty is about 15 yards from a safe table. Rather than risk losing the blaster, I've left it on the safe table (slide back and locked, empty chamber visable) while I have used the john. Is this really a DQ'able situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) I've left my rig on with gun holstered to go pee, is that a DQ'able offense? For clarification, the pants stay up and the belt stays on. some of us has to worry about sweeping our-body part- when we stand to pee Edited April 23, 2012 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Right - and don't you hate how long it takes to roll it back up when you're done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 And then there's the side debate whether somebody can be DQ'd for generic unsafe gun handling for leaving a gun unattended at a safety table... I can tell you how I'd rule on that one as an RM -- not a DQ unless a specific safety rule was broken..... Ammo in the gun, waving the muzzle around indiscriminately..... If I need to utilize a porta-potty, and need to remove my belt, I'll case or bag the gun in the safety area first..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Where I shoot the portapotty is about 15 yards from a safe table. Rather than risk losing the blaster, I've left it on the safe table (slide back and locked, empty chamber visable) while I have used the john. Is this really a DQ'able situation? No..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 And then there's the side debate whether somebody can be DQ'd for generic unsafe gun handling for leaving a gun unattended at a safety table... I can tell you how I'd rule on that one as an RM -- not a DQ unless a specific safety rule was broken..... Ammo in the gun, waving the muzzle around indiscriminately..... If I need to utilize a porta-potty, and need to remove my belt, I'll case or bag the gun in the safety area first..... +1. I agree that this should not be a DQ to leave a gun unattended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Where I shoot the portapotty is about 15 yards from a safe table. Rather than risk losing the blaster, I've left it on the safe table (slide back and locked, empty chamber visable) while I have used the john. Is this really a DQ'able situation? No..... Mea culpa back there. I shouldn't have left that previous post hanging out there with no definitive stance. I feel that leaving a gun should not be a DQ because there is no specific rule to support the DQ. It's just there was a debate whether it should be a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunguru Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I can't tell for USPSA, but for IPSC: 2.4 Safety Areas 2.4.1 The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed and easily identified with signs.So, telling SA is too far away to safely remove the gun isn't a good excuse, or may be turn into a challenge for the MD/RM, asking why there's no SA conveniently placed (maybe one near the "the big blue") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) So, if your blaster falls out of it's holster down into the "Potty" is the R.O. going to get it???? Nope, don't want to be the guy walking around with Dillon Blue hands.. I'll take mine off and bag it thank you!!! Edited April 23, 2012 by NoSteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 NROI Rulings Title:Removing holster and/or holster from person while handgun still in the holster.Created:12/02/08Updated:12/09/08Effective:12/09/08Rule number:5.2.1Applies to:PistolRuling authority:John AmidonStatus:ReleasedQuestionAfter I have been unloaded and shown clear on the line by an RO, can I go back to my bag and remove my holster and/or blet with the holster attached while the handgun is still in the holsterRulingA competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes his/her holster or his/her equipment belt with his/her handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. Safety areas are provided for doing this while not under the supervision of a RO. Not that this happened recently or anything. Let's say a competitor needs to make a semi emergency visit to the porta pottie. If I understand the ruling the RO can supervise them removing the entire rig. Correct? Then does the RO have to watch the rig, until the shooter is available to put it back on? When the shooter is available to retrieve the rig do they have to get the RO to supervise putting it back on? Keep in mind this hypothetical event probably took place at a local match where there are not safety areas every hundred yards or so. I'm thinking they can remove it under supervision. It can be left grounded. RO must supervise picking it back up and putting it on. I also think it should be situation dependent. i.e If a shooter can get to a safety area and then to the facilities they should. But if they are in some kind of distress they should ask for RO assistance. Thoughts? Another way to handle this - which to me is the equivalent procedure... you allow the shooter to unholster and ground a safe gun on a bay - then go and strip off his rig, use the facility and come back, put his rig on and then retrieve his gun. Barring having a safety table around, and the immediate need to drop pants... you would have an RO have the shooter show clear and place the gun down safely and the bay would remain hot with the RO in supervision until they return. Once the belt is removed from the shooter with the gun in the holster, it's in the same state as it would be if they drew it out of the holster - but it's not during the COF so with permission of the RO - and the RO maintaining a hot range - the competitor should be able to leave and come back. Then it's just to the logistics of whether you are willing or able to have a dead bay or occupy a stage for the time it takes to do so - but it would be exactly that. You wouldn't be able to pull the gun out and set it on a barrel on the stage and then run the next shooter while it's still there - the same will apply to the unbelted competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunguru Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 So, if your blaster falls out of it's holster down into the "Potty" is the R.O. going to get it???? And how is it supposed to know??? I abslolutely don't want to know how a RO could see my big gun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Ok thanks, I couldn't think of a rule that would make it a problem and couldn't remember it ever being an actual issue at any club. Much rather leave it on a safe table (or bag it at the safe table) than hear a "ker-plunk" and realize it is swimming with the fishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvability Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) Recently had to remove rig at a local match - grabbed our supervising RO and told him what I needed - he followed me to the safe area and had me stow magazines away from the safe table then remove the rig and make the adjustments and then re kit back up and then reclaim mags and rejoin the match. I was satisfied with this approach but I do not know how it would have been handled if observed without an RO in attendance. Thr primary goal is repeatable and observable safety. Edited April 23, 2012 by Solvability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Santiago Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 This came up in a discussion yesterday at A6 with several very experienced CRO's and an instructor. Nothing in the rules says you cannot remove your belt,gun and loaded mags in the safe area and leave the rig there. As long as you do not handle the mags/with ammo, nothing in the rules prevents it. I'll not name them, but if they happen to read this, they can express their views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 23, 2012 Author Share Posted April 23, 2012 Maybe I tried to be too eloquent with my initial post. A shooter was sick and about to shit all over himself and urgently asked me for help. I'm all about safety but I'm going to also do everything I can to keep something like that from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 As much as I support the strict enforcement of the safety rules, if a shooter is in the midst of an emergency(gastrointestinal or any other) I would expect a reasonable,responsible RO to safety take control of the shooter's gun until the crisis has passed. If I'm the one in desperate need of the porta-potty I'd take a DQ before I shit myself in front of the hundred or so people I shoot with on a regular basis. No rulebook can account for every conceivable situation and those enforcing the rules should use their common sense, and have a bit of compassion when out of the ordinary circumstances arise. And I believe the ruling you quoted "A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision" would allow an RO to assist a shooter in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 If the RO supervised the gun/rig handling, what rule was broken, if any ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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