Sweeping

[slavex]

at a recent match a shooter was required to put his gun, unloaded, into a box, with all the mags in the box as well. At some point, somehow, apparently his hand went in front of the muzzle of the gun, in the box, and he was DQ'd for sweeping. We've had many many discussions about this up here and want to get a bigger take on it. Was this justified? If so, does that mean if I let my hand go below my holster (which is an open ended type, so the muzzle would be visible if you looked up inside) that I should be DQ'd for sweeping? whether or not the gun is loaded? Same would apply for people who have holsters with nothing over the muzzle, like Ghosts etc. Is the gun in the box not in the same state as the gun in the holster? and what about in the safety area when you are maybe cleaning your gun, and your hand goes in front of the muzzle, or whatabout when using a squib rod to get out a stuck bullet? all these things could be considered sweeping right?

Does the rule book cover all of this, cause it it does I can't find it? Any other points or ideas on this people?

[Flexmoney]

Sweeping...with an unloaded gun.

Pistol in a bag...what is sweeping?

How to check for a squibb...no sweeping allowed

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Rob,

The threads quoted by Flex are too old to be useful due to rule changes. At the moment, there are two relevant rules in the January 2004 rulebook:

Rule 12.5: Sweeping - Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person's body (see Rule 10.5.5).

Note that the above does not require the gun to loaded and it now specifically includes second parties.

Rule 10.5.5: Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping) other than while drawing from a holster or re-holstering.

The rule above defines when a Match DQ is applicable (i.e. limited only to "self-sweeping" during a COF, not while you're fiddling about in the safety area). The important change to note is the addition of the words "from a holster", which were not there previously. In the incident you recounted, since the gun was in a box, it appears that the competitor swept himself "during a COF" but not while "drawing from a holster". Under the circumstances, the DQ seems correct.

BTW, the reason why "second party sweeping" is not included as a Match DQ offence in Rule 10.5.5 is because we have other rules to deal with breaking 90 degrees and pointing a muzzle uprange, and these would usually cover the RO and spectators who are uprange.

However the really cool part about this rule is that you do not get a Match DQ in the event that you're running downrange, you suddenly stop, but the RO runs in front of you and the muzzle of your gun, because this particular rule limits itself to "first party" self-sweeping.

Hope this helps.

[davidwiz]

Why isn't it sweeping if you are drawing your gun from a holster? How is that "safe"?

[Jim Norman]

Dave,

I really wish you hadn't brought that up.

I defy you to put on any holster, insert a handgun and tell me that you will never be in a position where you have a body part infront of the muzzle.

I would refer you to a comment made elsewhere, We need to look at more safe and less safe as opposed to absolutes in some cases.

If we eliminate the exemption for sweeping on the draw, you will have very rigid postions that you can stand in, you will have to remove your gun and bag at the end of every course, since you would not be able to sit, bend or in many cases walk with out sweeping yourself or another.

If you want to do an experiment, simply holster a pistol and insert a wooden dowel into the muzzle, no move around as if you were sitting, running, walking, bending, assume every position you've ever had to assume to start a COF. You will find virtually none that won't cause a sweep.

As to the rule about sweeping in picking up a gun and mags out of a box, I have no problem, Make the box large enough that you can put the gun in the bx along with the mags, in a manner that does not require you to reach in front of your pistol to retreive the mags. Or simply pick the gun up and position it forward of your hand that is grabbing the mags.

12.5 says "Sweeping - Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person's body" This is a definition, not a rule!

As has been indicated, If you point your gun at the crowd (Break the 180) you are covered under 10.5. We should all note the exception for activites at the safety area as well, There you may handle in a manner that would get you sent home on the COF.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

I'm delighted you asked that question. Sweeping with a loaded gun is never safe, but the rule exception was made because the design of some holsters makes it unavoidable.

This concept is flawed because it's akin to saying that a Model XYZ gun is unsafe, but we'll allow it to be used because a lot of people have them or a similarly lame reason, and this issue has bothered me for a long time. And, frankly, it astounds me we have some competitors who want the ability to move their holster away from their belly area because "it hurts" when they go prone, but it's possible the same people don't mind sweeping themselves on the draw. Go figure.

I don't get to teach guys like Eric Grauffel or TGO how to shoot - I teach absolute beginners and, as a precautionary measure, they're not permitted to chamber a round before holstering their pistol until I'm satisifed that they're competent enough to acquire IPSC "Safe Shooter Certification" (the term we use in Hong Kong for our physical testing protocol). Then of course they attend their first "big match", when they, and me for them, get as nervous as hell.

If I achieve nothing else in my rule work, I'll be working to have the subject exception further restricted as follows:

DRAFT Rule 10.5.5: Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping), other than the competitor's strong side foot or leg while drawing from a holster or re-holstering.

While this will not achieve Nirvana for me, at least it will remove the competitor's weak side leg, both hands, his family jewels and other extremeties from the equation.

[davidwiz]

Thank you Vince. That's a much better answer than, almost always drawing from aany holster will result in sweeping yourself. I think it really comes down to holster placement and the individual's drawing technique. I've never seen anyone sweep any part of their body while drawing from a properly placed holster (i.e. a holster placed at or behind the hip bone). I've seen people sweep themselves when they have their holster offset to point to their weak side, like is popular with some steel shooters.

-David

[ima45dv8]

DRAFT Rule 10.5.5: Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping), other than the competitor's strong side foot or leg while drawing from a holster or re-holstering.

While this will not achieve Nirvana for me, at least it will remove the competitor's weak side leg, both hands, his family jewels and other extremeties from the equation.

Vince, It seems from several of your posts that you embrace the practical origins of our sport, so what would you do about some old throw-back who uses an inside-the-waistband holster occasionally? It's pretty hard to draw from one, or reholster without having the muzzle point at your own butt.

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, It seems from several of your posts that you embrace the practical origins of our sport, so what would you do about some old throw-back who uses an inside-the-waistband holster occasionally? It's pretty hard to draw from one, or reholster without having the muzzle point at your own butt.

Noted and agreed, however my personal preference for our practical origins is always subservient to my desire to maximise safety.

In the possible (but unlikely?) event that a competitor wanted to use an IWB holster, then I hope and pray that the officiating RO would prohibit him from doing so under the provisions of the Rule 5.2.5.3. As I'm sure you've experienced with "seated" starts, if the gun condition is not "holstered, but unloaded" or "loaded, but on the table", any RO worth his salt would order all competitors with "crotch rockets" or similar to move their holster to their strong side.

My desire to "tighten" Rule 10.5.5 is merely an effort to further strengthen safety at our matches, primarily in respect of more modern holsters (and their owners) which place a higher emphasis on draw speed than muzzle angle. No, I'm not their Mother but I, for one, cannot in good conscience allow a competitor to risk avoidable personal injury on my shift.

As an aside, I've often refused to process a competitor wearing (what I describe as) "John Lennon glasses" as eye protection (popular in Asia), wearby normal "heads down" aiming totally exposes unprotected eyes to potential splatter. So far, 100% of the competitors didn't even realise the risk, and they thanked me for taking an interest in their safety.

I'm also confident that you, like me, have seen competitors place their hands in front of the muzzle of their guns while holstering, to ensure the muzzle sits properly in (for want of a better word) the "stump", because the "bare bones" design of many modern holsters has insufficient material to guide the gun properly with the use of the strong hand alone.

I hope this answers your question.

[Garfield]

Vince,

do you have any statistics on how many times it has happened that anyone actually fired the gun while (un)holstering ?

[ima45dv8]

In the possible (but unlikely?) event that a competitor wanted to use an IWB holster, then I hope and pray that the officiating RO would prohibit him from doing so under the provisions of the Rule 5.2.5.3.

It's very possible and not at all unlikely. We have several competitors locally who like to use carry gear on occasion, including IWBs. Sometimes I do. Your point about not requiring a seated start with loaded gun holstered is well taken, though.

As a side note, I hope we never see a time when IPSC or USPSA considers outlawing this type of holster because someone thought it unsafe, or unlikely. As long as the model used prevents inserting one's finger into the trigger guard while holstered, allows one-handed reholstering via a reinforced mouth, and the CoF doesn't require a seated draw, that's one area I'd like to see left alone.

What should be outlawed are cheap holsters, IWB or OWB, that collapse and require 2 hands to reholster. New shooters tend to show up with these and proceed to sweep themselves badly during reholstering. But hey!, they can't be DQ'd.

I'm also confident that you, like me, have seen competitors place their hands in front of the muzzle of their guns while holstering, to ensure the muzzle sits properly in (for want of a better word) the "stump", because the "bare bones" design of many modern holsters has insufficient material to guide the gun properly with the use of the strong hand alone.

Yes, I've seen that. But rarely do I see it with the high-end race holsters (unless the user is very inexperienced with their new rig). I do see it regularly with those afore-cursed super cheap holsters that collapse when the gun is removed (IWB and OWB), or with holsters that are not properly supported by a belt of sufficient width and/or rigidity (unmatched systems). It tends to be new shooters who show up with these equipment problems, and we don't want to run them off by stating they have to go right out and buy a new holster (what a wonderful introduction to the equipment race, huh?). I don't know if there's an easy answer here.

[Glen]

When I am standing relaxed, my hand extends down below the

bottom of the holster. My arm lies alongside the holster so some

or all of my hand and fingers will be in front of the muzzle. Will

I be required to pull my shoulder back to move my arm? (Recall

the Steve Anderson video and the subsequent discussion.) Further,

this isn't occuring during the draw, but immediately after the LAMR,

so I doubt the "draw exemption" will apply. Is this sweeping? And if

so, how do I correct it?

Glen

[Vince Pinto]

Garfield,

No, IPSC does not keep any such statistics and, due to our enviable safety record, I'm certain such a list would be shorter than my shopping list for "Knitting Supplies"

Having said that, the concept of safety in IPSC (and indeed all shooting sports), is "Preventative Maintenance" not "Repairs".

Glen,

Firstly a warm welcome to the BE Forums.

Secondly, to answer your question, yes, strict interpretation of the current rule means that as soon as you've finished holstering and you hang your arms by your side with your hand covering the muzzle, you are indeed sweeping yourself, although in reality, I doubt you would get a match DQ. In any case, in an effort to address this anomaly, there's a proposal on the table to further refine the definition of "sweeping" in Rule 12.5 as follows:

(Draft) Sweeping - Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of any person's body while the firearm is actually being held in the hand(s).

This also covers cases where, say, a loaded gun is place on a table (the start position) and then somebody walks downrange (under the authority of an RO), to reset a popper which has fallen down prior to the start signal. Moreover, although it wasn't part of the original tweaking plan, this proposed amendment probably helps the guys currently dealing with the Multi-Gun rules (Hi Bruce!).

[shred]

although in reality, I doubt you would get a match DQ. In any case, in an effort to address this anomaly, there's a proposal on the table to further refine the definition of "sweeping" in Rule 12.5 as follows:

(Draft) Sweeping - Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of any person's body while the firearm is actually being held in the hand(s).

This also covers cases where, say, a loaded gun is place on a table (the start position) and then somebody walks downrange (under the authority of an RO), to reset a popper which has fallen down prior to the start signal. Moreover, although it wasn't part of the original tweaking plan, this proposed amendment probably helps the guys currently dealing with the Multi-Gun rules.

So, were I to unscrew my Guga Ribas with a loaded pistol in it and hold the holster part, I could wave the muzzle at any downrange body part, my own or others, and not be sweeping? What if I just tuck it in my elbow, behind a knee or stash it on a table during the COF for a bit while I tie my shoes? Can it then non-sweepingly point at my tender body parts?

"I'm not touching it, anything goes" is not a good solution.

[Garfield]

Hi,

I was heading for the direction of "do the rules really need further tightening with respect to safety, because nono's shouldn't be playing IPSC at all", but with the help of some off-line discussion I now understand why preventing accidents should be paramount. There are areas in the world where (IPSC) shooting is at best tolerated, and any accidents happening within IPSC would lead to the forbidding of that sport. Vince thanks for making me understand.

Having said that, I will let Vince's proposal/idea about a rule allowing only sweeping of the strong-hand leg go around in my thoughts a bit, because at first galnce I am not happy with that, so I will try to help think up alternatives.

[Neil Beverley]

Vince,

do you have any statistics on how many times it has happened that anyone actually fired the gun while (un)holstering ?

I know of 2 occasions but not at IPSC matches, instead at other action shooting events. One was with a seated shooter on the draw. The bullet travelled down the entire length of his leg, entered his thigh and ended up by his ankle bone.

The other was a police officer at one of their sporting events and he shot himself in the butt as he holstered. Now get this. He was holstering a loaded gun for safety reasons while he moved to his next shooting position on a stage.

Both guys made good recoveries.

[Jim Norman]

although in reality, I doubt you would get a match DQ. In any case, in an effort to address this anomaly, there's a proposal on the table to further refine the definition of "sweeping" in Rule 12.5 as follows:

(Draft) Sweeping - Allowing the muzzle of a firearm to point at any part of any person's body while the firearm is actually being held in the hand(s).

This also covers cases where, say, a loaded gun is place on a table (the start position) and then somebody walks downrange (under the authority of an RO), to reset a popper which has fallen down prior to the start signal. Moreover, although it wasn't part of the original tweaking plan, this proposed amendment probably helps the guys currently dealing with the Multi-Gun rules.

So, were I to unscrew my Guga Ribas with a loaded pistol in it and hold the holster part, I could wave the muzzle at any downrange body part, my own or others, and not be sweeping? What if I just tuck it in my elbow, behind a knee or stash it on a table during the COF for a bit while I tie my shoes? Can it then non-sweepingly point at my tender body parts?

"I'm not touching it, anything goes" is not a good solution.

Shred,

What you point out is why too much emphasis on very specific rules is bad. We all know that the situation you speak of is not one that should be allowed. I think we can safely say that it is covered under unsafe gun handling.

There is absolutely no way that we can write a rule to cover every conceivable situation. And I for one am thankful for that. What we need to do is educate shoters and RO's to be aware that UNSAFE is UNSAFE and that you will be stopped and DQ'd for such action and if you are a real A-H about it, you may find yourself persona non grata at the range. Go ahead arbitrate, I say it was unsafe, you lose.

If anyone were to actually succeed in individually covering every possible position or action that can occur in an Action Match, we'd find our selves shooting Bullseye with single shot guns. You would not be allowed to move at all, Holster, you have to be kidding, Run! Are you out of your mind?! and so on.

I think that if we work the eduaction end, we are going to be far better off. Remember, every time you think you have made something idiot proof, someone finds a new class of idiot!

Jim Norman

[Neil Beverley]

Jim

There are many things on which we do agree. This is an area where we don't see eye to eye.

We have already seen, recently, discussions where people have different views on what is safe and what is not.

By having a policy where it is left to discretion we end up with:

• Tough RO, soft competitor. RO calls it unsafe, competitor appeals. Now is the Arbitration Committee going to be tough or soft?
  
• Next day, same match, same stage, but now a soft RO - different call. 3rd party arbitration from tough (other) competior, different arbitration committee, different result
  

It's a mess and with inconsistent results. Without a detailed rule book we start to arbitrarily affect the result of a match and worse - safety matters, based on differing opinions.

You and I may have a great deal of common sense, and many others, but certainly not all. I suspect you and I would be a bit tougher than many others. I prefer our stance. I worry about the stance of others.

[Jim Norman]

Neil,

I don't think we are in total disagreement here either.

However I stick to my point as I feel it is not inconsistent. We cannot make a rule to cover everything. This is a dynamic sport, not a static sport. We need to categorize those things that are not allowed and set the penalties. Keep in mind, whether the RO is a Hard one or a Soft one still applies, The call is quite often RO judgement. Did the competitor break the 180 as an example. Yes, we all know that 179.9 is not a break, 180 is not a break, depending upon exactly where the RO is standing and the contours of the range, he could honestly as a HARD RO DQ a competitor at 175 because he perceives the 180 as being broken, as a SOFT RO, he might not call a DQ till 185. Without changing texture, but by moving 1 foot in any direction he might reverse the same call.

There are very few things that are not up to the discretion of the RO. You dropped your gun, DQ, You AD'd at ULSC, DQ, Finger? Discretion, did I really see that? 180, as explained above, Ammo at a safe table, It is or it is not, period.

So, to try hard to keep to the thread, If a shooter were to take his holster off his belt would you call him for sweeping if the holstered gun crossed anyone? If I show up to the range with my gun in my Range bag, the muzzle pointed 40 degrees below the horizontal would you call me on sweeping? Now, if the gun in either case proved to be loaded, there are already penalties in place.

We currently allow sweeping on the draw, some would eliminate that and I for one feel that would virtually eliminate holstered guns. It is virtually impossible to have a gun in a holster that will not at some time cover some portion of your body. Some have said they would allow covering the leg and foot on the side of the body where the holster is located, like I really care which leg has a hole? If we go that direction, we can only go 100% or 0%. Now, that having been said, I think that we should carefully examine whether we can limit the cant of the holster in this manner, "When standing erect and relaxed, the muzzle of the holstered gun should A) Not cross through the persons body and Should point at the ground to the holstered side of a line perpendicular to a line drawn across the heels of the competitor and not beyond the opposite side foot. C) Holsters canted rearwards must point at the ground within one meter of the shooters feet.

X

|_______| holster

Heels

From Holster it is OK to point muzzle to the X in front of your toes, when standing erect, not beyond.

(Not sure if you'll get this attempted sketch.)

I think this would pass muster of More Safe vs Less Safe.

As to the one meter rule, and if the shooter bends to sit down? Do we DQ him since I will bet that the muzzle just passed though the one meter line!?

As to sweeping your hand, I think that if your arms are long you'll always have the situation where your gun hand hangs below the muzzle, but since the gun is holstered and the trigger covered this falls under "More Safe". I think that grabbing the muzzle of your holstered "loaded" gun in order to adjust the set of your gun belt falls under "Less Safe" If your belt is sliding down than much, maybe you need suspenders (Braces) or a better fitting belt.

I am in favor of safety, but not of rules that strangle. Sorry if I seem to disagree here a bit, but there are people that probably should not be shooting in our sport. Everyone will make a mistake from time to time. Assuming all the rules except the one that is broken remain intact, we will probably all laugh at it later. It is when multiple rules fail that problems occur and it is due in large part to over regulation that many people leave common sense at the door. "Hey as long as they don't say I can't I can. There is no rule against XXX" This is what causes so much trouble in the world in general.

Jim Norman