Helping Score while taping/setting props

[Tman33_99]

This sort of follows David's earlier post about honor in competition.

Today during a match, there was a couple of poppers by themselves w/No-shoots behind. The RO was scoring the targets but neglicted to look at the NS near these poppers. After he had passed, the person setting the poppers called out to the RO if he wanted to see a NS hit. At this point the shooter got upset and said "that isn't your job, that is the RO's job.

The shooter calmed down and took the NS hit and didn't say anything else. A few other shooters came over later to the person who was setting steel and told him he shouldn't have said anything, that the RO is the only one who should score the targets and the penalities and if he misses it that is just the good luck of the shooter.

I completely disagree. There will be times that the RO misses something and if someone else sees it they should point it out, whether that is a penality or to call attention to an edge hit that is missed.

Other's thoughts?

[JohnL]

Well, I wonder what the shooter would have said if a helper had pointed out a hit on a scoring target that the RO had missed?

I'm an RO and it is the RO's job to look at every target and to carefully check every target. But, sometimes we just miss something.

[Shooter Grrl]

It's a shame my "class" distinctions rant got wiped out in the transfer.

Travis my man, it's all part of the growing process The longer ya been around, the higher the desire to truly win, which means not cheating as your described. But there are many out there that have not reached that point yet. My personal opinion is to let them have there cheating moment, someday they'll wake up and realize the error of the ways.

(Mine came at the Nats when one of the super squad sidled up to Voigt and told him the RO missed a hard cover hit. Voigt then went and got the RO and MADE HIM fix it even though it had been signed. He didn't want a lucky break, he wanted to win fairly. That was the end of my "keep your mouth shut" tirades

[Nik Habicht]

I make it a point whenever I'm anywhere near targets --- whether as the shooter, or as a taper, or scorekeeper ---- to point a finger in the direction of anything that might require a closer inspection on targets......

Ethically it's the right thing to do ---- are you here to compete or to get one over when another human demonstrates his fallibility? Even if the RO misses the no-shoot, aren't you going to know? Do you want to win that way? I don't.....

[warpspeed]

At most of the club level matches I've shot, everyone in the squad helps score & tape at the same time. The guy who reset the steel should call the NS hits. Other wise the next shooter may get the honor of them on his score card when they are not deserved.

And yes SG, it is a shame your rant was lost.

[Ron Ankeny]

Frankly, I wouldn't have pointed out the hit on the no shoot target by asking the RO if he saw the hole. I would have simply yelled, "White tape".

[mactiger]

Yep, you can hear that quite often. Very effective.

Troy

[Dead Buff]

Agreed in all the above - help the RO he had/will have a long day and is only as human as the guy who shot the NS - mistakes happen.

And loudly ask for the white patches - it aleays get everybodies attention

[Vince Pinto]

Borrowing from the movie "There's Something About Mary", I occasionally like to yell "We got a bleeder".

[Skywalker]

Borrowing from the movie "There's Something About Mary", I occasionally like to yell "We got a bleeder".

My pet calls as a scorekeeper are:

"Go tell the widow you're insured" (if penalty target is hit),

"you'll have to pay the laundry for the PT trousers as soon as he comes round" (if PT is grazed).

Seriously, I would have reported it to the RO too.

[Julien Boit]

Well that a truly good question !

I'd say there are two answers depending on people.

Some will take it and say nothing, some won't.

I remember seeing Eric G. at one of our nationals walking after the RO and telling him he had an extra shot and that extra shot went into a NS target.

He took it and of course won the stage despite the penalty.

But I know other shooters who would say nothing and invocate "shooter's advantage".

I truly believe that this is RO's fault (or the person who scores the hits) if he/she misses something, and if someone else is pointing it out, it could be considered as coaching, BUT, a fair shooter would pick the penalty head high.

Sometimes, we made jokes about that kind of situation around here by asking if we have to patch the No shoots behind steel.

Some laughs, some don't...

[BDH]

I had one a couple of years ago where I walked past a NS that no one had previously hit. While I was continuing to score targets, one of the squad members leaned over and whispered to me "hey, you might want to check that front NS". Sure enough, I had missed a NS hit (which also eliminated a scoring hit farther downrange).

Then at this years 3 Gun Nats, we had another NS that got hit once during the entire match, and sure enough we didn't even see it until someone on the next squad pointed it out.

In the first situation, I appreciated the help although I always questioned the motive since he whispered to me, and clearly did not want the shooter to know he pointed this out. In the second situation, it would have been nice if someone pointed this hit out. But then again, 3 RO's didn't see it, so maybe no one else in the squad saw it either...

[Jim Norman]

I agree that you should get the hits and the penalties your shots iincur. THe problem with not pointing out the NS hit, is that it may not get taped and the next shooter may get the penalty assuming that the hit is the same caliber.

The shooter that whispered about the miss probably wants to avoid the political BS for what might loosely be refered to as a friend.

Jim Norman

[.40AET]

A fellow shooter forgot a mandatory reload and the scoring was all done and I added in the fact that his blazing string (with a big stick) would not have been as fast if he had performed the reload. He shot open for the first time and was in love with the big stick. Everyone lauged it off and I felt bad at first, but I would expect him or any of the other tools in my squad to point it out to me. We are allways hacking on each other, pointing out that another "Good guy" got shot. Everyone that I shoot with expects the same amount of integrity from the other guy as they themselves bring to the match. All of us would tool the cheater hard enough to think twice about doing it again.

[JFlowers]

If no one points out my mistakes to myself and the RO, how can I ever learn from them?

[Flexmoney]

I try not to tape any target unless I am sure it has been properly scored. (I'll call the RO's and the shooter's attention to it...let them figure it out. )

The shooter deserves whatever they hit...good or bad. We aren't playing a scoring game...we are playing a shooting game.

[kdj]

The shooter deserves whatever they hit...good or bad. We aren't playing a scoring game...we are playing a shooting game.

Well said!

There's a difference between gaming and cheating and not getting an accurate call on the score 'cause of an RO oversight that you know about is cheating in my book.

If I earned those No-shoot hits then I want credit for them and I feel the same about the scoring hits

Kevin

[Gun Geek]

Kevin, Flex:

Yep.

I do want to point out a couple of things, you should not do if you are taping:

1) Tape before the target is scored BY THE RO. Can't tell you the number of times those helpful poeople have cause heartburn with that one.

2) Announce the score when the RO walks up to the target. Yes, you've been standing there for a few minutes with nothing to do so you've scored it 10 times. Stay quiet until the RO announces the score. If it doesn't agree with your scoring then speak up.

3) Mess with pasters, pushing cardboard from the back to see if it is a double, etc. If there is something close, there is already a question, and you folling around with the target only raises the number of questions. Just don't touch it!

Geek

[BDH]

3) Mess with pasters, pushing cardboard from the back to see if it is a double, etc.  If there is something close, there is already a question, and you folling around with the target only raises the number of questions.  Just don't touch it!

Geek, all valid points. Although, 9.1.2 certainly covers this one, and I fully agree, DON'T DO IT!

[Scooter]

It seems that most if not all of the top shooters will argue with the RO/MD to have penalties added on that the RO missed in scoring. It's the right thing to do. A friend of mine was ROing Todd Jarrett and he missed scoring the popper that TJ forgot to shoot. Someone pointed that out to TJ and he argued with the MD to have the miss added onto the score sheet. He ended up losing the match by less points than the miss that was added on.

Whether to speak out or keep your mouth shut depends on who's ROing. I had one local range nazi/Mr. Know-it-all D class shooter/certified RO chew me out because I pointed out that he missed a target which had 2 mikes because the shooter ran passed it. He went on forever yelling at me how I shouldn't tell him how to do his job because he's the RO and he's in charge, blah blah blah. Seems like he had a 170mm mag stuck up his ass.

[Tman33_99]

I am glad that the consensus here is the way i thought it would be. A couple of the people saying to keep quiet were GM and M class. I will not mention names, but I did not like what I was hearing.

[warpspeed]

Frankly, I wouldn't have pointed out the hit on the no shoot target by asking the RO if he saw the hole. I would have simply yelled, "White tape".

That's a good one. I'll have to remember that one.

[dv8]

Wouldn't allowing one shooter to have his "shooter's advantage" in this case be the same as putting the rest of the shooters at a disadvantage? Besides, it just seems to be extremely distastful trying to shut a fellow competitor up so that the shooter will have an unfair chance to beat you.

It's kind of cheating in some sense, I wonder if there is any DQ ground in such a case?

[BDH]

Whether to speak out or keep your mouth shut depends on who's ROing.  I had one local range nazi/Mr. Know-it-all D class shooter/certified RO chew me out because I pointed out that he missed a target which had 2 mikes because the shooter ran passed it.  He went on forever yelling at me how I shouldn't tell him how to do his job because he's the RO and he's in charge, blah blah blah.  Seems like he had a 170mm mag stuck up his ass.

From this post it sounds like it was a 173mm mag.... so he goes to Open!

[diehli]

Actually, doesn't that mean he's only shooting for fun?