Hight and to the right (I'm a lefty)

[jackl4]

Hi Guys,

I am getting frustrated trying to shoot my 9mm XDm accurately. I am consistently shooting high and slightly right and I do not know what to do to correct myself. I'm a left handed shooter.

The gun is shooting properly from a bench so it is not sight alignment. I guess I am "heeling" the gun? But I don't know how to fix.

I have been dry firing a lot and I have no problems keeping the gun dead steady while dry fire practicing.

I have no issues when shooting my 1911 .45. I shoot that gun much better and have no issues with shooting that gun high. I just cannot seem to keep my XDm from shooting high and have no idea what to do to correct it.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks!

[Hi-Power Jack]

I have no issues shooting my 1911. I cannot keep my XDm from shooting high

Possible that you're pulling the gun up and towards

your weak side (right, in your case) as you pull

through the double action trigger pull of the XDm?

No problem with the SA trigger of the 1911.

You might not be holding the gun up high enough (causing

the gun to move up further), and you'd have to dry fire

the XDm trigger to keep the gun from moving during

the trigger pull???

[AlexOsensei]

maybe the trigger has not overtravel and when u shot the force u r still using pulls the gun toward the right..

[leemoe83]

How are your sights tracking during recoil? Is the front sight going straight up and down, or up and to the right? Have tried different grip pressure with the weak hand and strong hand. It is not unusual for the point of impact to be different when benched and offhand. If my sights are zeroed with lets say a 50/50 or 60/40 weak/strong hand pressure and then I relax one side the point of impact will shift to that side typically. Often when I am working on being relaxed and shooting groups I sometimes relax the strong hand side a little too much and the POI shifts to my strong side. I like my sights to track straight up and down, so if I am seeing the sights moving to the side in recoil I typically start looking at how much pressure I am using with each hand.

It can be difficult to do but when you bench the gun ideally your upper body should be in the exact same position as if you were shooting offhand. So if your at the bench and stand up your all ready in your normal offhand position.

So if you think your not snatching the trigger real hard and healing the gun this is what I would experiment with. Just my thoughts, hope you figure it out.

[jackl4]

Thanks guys. Leemoe83, I will try changing up my grip to see what happens during recoil. I appreciate that. Maybe this will help me better understand what I am doing wrong so I can begin correcting.

Just curious, how many people adjust their sights to compensate for improper trigger control? Some guys at the range tell me to just aim low. I really want to correct MY problem and be a better marksman. Where do you draw the line?

[ummm]

Just curious, how many people adjust their sights to compensate for improper trigger control?

I'm a complete novice, but in a very similar boat to you -- 9mm XDm, lefty, shooting to the right but low whenever I attempt to practice shooting at a non-snail's pace.

It's all trigger control for me. When I slo-fire, I have the time to get the tip of my finger down low on the trigger and squeeze straight back until the shot breaks. I also have to make sure I give a little "chickenwing" to my trigger finger so I don't rub the frame. Results in both live and dry fire are good (relative to my level of incompetence) as confirmed by laser or actual bullet holes out to 25 yards.

When I speed up, I had not been taking the extra nth of a second to really prep my trigger finger and grip, and my groups consistently move low and right.

I thought about adjusting the sights, but decided that was the Dark Side. There's no guarantee that I won't develop even worse habits as I continually try for ever-greater speeds, requiring ever more drastic sight adjustments, until I run out of adjustment?? Plus, I'm putting together an AR, I can see myself trying other pistols some day, maybe 3-gun, and I don't want my crappy trigger behavior to follow me into every firearm for the rest of my life.

So, since I'm so much a rookie and don't lose much time by rebuilding (grip, trigger squeeze, sight pic, stance, etc, etc, etc ) I decided I would just keep rebuilding whatever is wrong to the best of my ability. If I never get out of the "beginner rebuilding" phase I may reconsider my decision, but I'm not yet 3 months into this whole shooting thing, so I can afford some time

[Hi-Power Jack]

how many people adjust their sights to compensate for improper trigger control?

It's all trigger control for me. Results in both live and dry fire are good out to 25 yards.

When I speed up, I had not been taking the extra nth of a second to really prep my trigger finger and grip, and my groups consistently move low and right.

I thought about adjusting the sights, but decided that was the Dark Side. I don't want my crappy trigger behavior to follow me into every firearm for the rest of my life.

So, I decided I would keep rebuilding whatever is wrong to the best of my ability. If I never get out of the "beginner rebuilding" phase I may reconsider my decision

Sounds like a well thought out posting to me - I've been at it since Gettysburg

(Civil War) and I still pull gun down and left

The Dot Torture exercise is helping

[Sin-ster]

How consistent are we talking about here? If you're literally punching a tiny group in the same spot, just high and right of intended POI, it could be an issue with sight alignment that you don't run into with the 1911 or when benching.

I classify the causes for errant shots (not including improper sight alignment) in two categories:

1) Trigger Manipulations

2) Anticipation

The first category is pretty self-explanatory. Don't pull the trigger straight back, or do so with enough force to disrupt the sight alignment before the shot breaks, and you're gonna miss.

The second category encompasses every other way you can influence the orientation of the muzzle prior to the shot going off. Milking, breaking the wrist up, pushing the gun to one side with the support hand, full on flinching, etc. Heeling falls into this category as it typically results from a sudden pressure increase in your wrist and grip in preparation for the recoil.

Anticipation issues are almost impossible to diagnose in dry fire, and personally speaking, I think your ability to fix them with an empty gun is limited as well. I've seen it in my own shooting time and time again-- the minute that mag is full and a live round is chambered, some switch in my brain is thrown and all bets are off. You can build the proper techniques up in dry fire, but you'll never trick your mind into forgetting that there's a hot weapon in play and a whole host of new consequences and outcomes to your efforts. The only way to overcome that is to get comfortable with shooting the gun, and then the line that separates dry fire from live becomes blurred. At THAT point, dry fire seems to become even more effective.

Aside from the drills intended to break you of anticipation, there's a few other tricks you can try. Altering your grip pressure is a big one as it has consequences for how your hands react, as well as puts your focus on the grip and subsequently makes it easier to diagnose and prevent any sudden changes in pressure or movement prior to breaking the shot. Actually gripping the gun harder makes it almost impossible for you to increase your grip pressure prior to pressing the trigger, as you're expending most of your strength already!

You may also try shooting SHO and WHO to see if the problem persists. I've used this method countless times in order to diagnose the cause of my own issues. If I have a problem freestyle that doesn't appear when I'm shooting SHO, it's probably my support hand; if it doesn't appear shooting WHO, it's probably my strong hand!

[Hi-Power Jack]

You may also try shooting SHO and WHO to see if the problem persists.

Excellent advice. I learned a year ago, when I was

practicing weak hand only for an upcoming match, that

it was essential to "prep" the trigger weakhand, or

I'd miss the target at 15 yards

The entire target

When I started prepping the trigger shooing with

both hands, that really helped

[speedrrracer]

Excellent advice. I learned a year ago, when I was

practicing weak hand only for an upcoming match, that

it was essential to "prep" the trigger weakhand, or

I'd miss the target at 15 yards

The entire target

When I started prepping the trigger shooing with

both hands, that really helped

Hi-Power Jack -- can you go into a bit of detail on "prep the trigger weakhand"? I'm not understanding that phrase and want to follow your post in it's entirety if possible -- thanks!

[GmanCdp]

qoute:The gun is shooting properly from a bench so it is not sight alignment. I guess I am "heeling" the gun? But I don't know how to fix

Could you be actually looking over the sights,rather then thru them?? When on the bench,setting,you probably have your head a little more tilted down and looking thru the sights.. I also shoot left handed,maybe once in 5000rnds withh i throw a couple high and right and i relate to slapping the trigger and not keeping the wrist locked in to some degree, or over transitioning a target.

[jackl4]

I shoot consistent groups 3-4" high to the right of the bullseye. I'm actually happy with my consistency as they are nice groups - just not in the bullseye where I am aiming.

I do not think I am looking on top of the sights nor do I think I am aiming the gun incorrectly. My gut tells me I am moving the gun while pulling the trigger. Being a double action with significantly more trigger travel, I have a lot more time to screw things up during the "stroke" than I do with my 1911.

I think Sin-Ster's has some insight into what I am doing wrong. I wanted to get to the range yesterday and work on what he describes as well as what leemoe83 said about how my sights are tracking. I didn't make it but hope to get out tonight and figure it out.

I will reply with what I found out.

Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate you helping me figure this out. I refuse to move the sights to fix my problem. I'm good with a long gun and have always wanted better skills with a pistol.

Best,

Jack

[Hi-Power Jack]

it was essential to "prep" the trigger or

I'd miss the target

Hi-Power Jack -- can you go into a bit of detail on "prep the trigger weakhand"?

If you have a 5 lb trigger, e.g., you can start at 0 lbs pressure, and

suddenly apply 5 lbs of pressure, which is usually guaranteed to miss

the target - pushing the gun.

Or you can apply a small amount of pressure at a time (1 lb?) evenly,

as quickly as you can, holding the gun as steady as possible.

I took a course from Ted Puente a year ago, and he spent hours going

over the concept of prepping the trigger - breaking down the pressure

into small increments so as not to misalign the sights.

If you try shooting weak hand only, it is readily apparent what happens

if you don't "prep the trigger". Then, just apply the same concept to

shooting with both hands - real big difference - try it on a Dot Torture

exercise - amazing - and you'll save $450 for the 2-day course

[Sin-ster]

Keep in mind that a lot of guns will bench differently than they'll shoot for you freestyle. It's especially true of polymer guns. Simply put, if your group is that tight and that consistent, it really may be the gun and not you!

Try the grip exercises and see if it makes a difference. Folks who have guns that are notably different from the bench and when shot freestyle report that increasing grip pressure brings them closer to the same spot.

One last thing you might consider-- be certain that your trigger finger isn't dragging on the frame or "pushing" the trigger. I've discovered the handful of times that I was shooting tight groups off of my POA, it was always something that I was doing with the trigger finger. It was 100% repeatable and consistent, and resulted in the type of experience you're reporting.

The other stuff that's anticipation related is REALLY hard to replicate every time, and it's almost impossible to shoot a tight group at all. I've had the rounds all touching each other, but in a perfectly strung line drifting away from my intended POI!

[Darqnezz]

It could be 1 big thing, or a couple of little things. One thing I would check is your trigger finger placement. As you know, all guns are not built alike. Sometimes the change in the size of the grips makes you push the trigger instead of pulling it straight back. Hopefully its a simple fix.

[LYNRDSKYNRD]

Try using dummy rounds mixed in with live rounds you will be able to see if you are moving the gun when the shot breaks on the dummys.

For clarification, load a couple magazines mixed with live and dummy rounds and shoot some groups. The goal is to not know when you are shooting a dummy round so you don't treat those shots differently from the live rounds.

[jackl4]

Well guys, I figured it out. I am very embarrassed to say it is the sights on the gun. I'm happy that it is not me because it was driving me bonkers. Yesterday morning I finally peeled myself away from work and went to the range. There was a guy there with a very nice shooting rest that he made himself. He's a retired machinist.

Anyway, he let me shoot the gun from his rest and the gun is shooting 3-4 inches high and right.

When I had the sights installed, I shot the gun from a rest (sandbags and towels piled up) and the gun seemed right on. That was last year and the gun sat in the safe for the last eight months. I just started shooting it again because I want to gain proficiency with that class of gun as well as my 1911's.

I just assumed the sights maintained. I guess they really could have been off from the start and I just did a lousy job of checking it the first time. They are Truglo TFO sights and I did not think they could move. I called Truglo and they said to send the slide to them and they will correct it free of charge. I have no idea how they are going to correct elevation.

I am really sorry for wasting anyone's time. I feel foolish now. I am humbled by the people on this site and so very thankful of you guys taking the time to help us newbies. Please accept my apologies and I will do my homework much better before throwing questions out to the community.

Thanks everyone. Even still, I learned a lot about things I still need to work on with my shooting.

Best,

Jack

[Wild Gene]

The polymer guns are a different beast.

It is funny, I am very conscious about prepping the trigger with my 1911's, and I shoot my polymer guns pretty good too, but I am unsure about how I really prep the trigger or even if I am doing it in the best manner. Should we really try to shoot the polymer guns like a SA or should we try to shoot them more like a DA revolver, with a little more finger in the trigger and a constant trigger pull with no hesitation?

On the original question, I find the geometry of the XD's make me do the same thing. Grip pressure is really a big deal for me. I do not have as much trouble with the Glocks as the XD's or the M&P's. I think this is because of the geometry of the grips vs the Glock. Pay attention and make sure to follow through, pin the trigger through the shot, watch the sights settle before you release the trigger.

WG

**Ha, I started my reply before you replied above. I am happy you figured it out. Have a great day.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Wild Gene

[jackl4]

I am still learning how to shoot the xd properly. I seem to do better if I keep the trigger in motion once I start moving it (as opposed to prep it close to the breaking point). But I have yet to develop the muscle control and stamina to keep it consistent.

I love working it though!

Thanks guys.

[Wild Gene]

I am still learning how to shoot the xd properly. I seem to do better if I keep the trigger in motion once I start moving it (as opposed to prep it close to the breaking point).

Yea, that is what I was referring to. Sevigny would be a good one to ask that question.

WG

[Wild Gene]

When asked the question "Do you prep the trigger on the poly guns the same way you do a 1911 SA trigger? Or is it more like a DA revolver, with a little more finger in the trigger and a constant pull?", this is what Dave said "I work either platform about the same. What kind of trigger pull I use depends on what Im engaging but for the most part I prep/reset most shots".

WG

Edited April 22, 2012 by Wild Gene