Most overlooked detail about the 1200B with 223

[modex]

The facts (correct me if I'm wrong):

- The trim die is a full length sizer

- The trim die does not have a decapping rod

- The universal decapper rod does not have an expanding ball

- The decapping rod of a standard sizing die does have an expanding ball

- The trim die will squeeze the neck, requiring the use of an expanding ball to open it back up again.

I've read various posts about 1200B and how it's set up with other dies. The most common is: univ decap -> trim die -> clean -> univ decap to remove media -> prime -> powder -> seat -> crimp.

This setup leaves out one minor detail: the expanding ball. The expanding ball opens the neck a little so that you won't shave any lead or copper jacketing off when seating the bullet. It seems like everyone is overlooking that one detail and just seating their rounds in unexpanded cases for 223. Is it just not that important?

Some of the following workarounds are suggested:

Use a standard FL sizing die with decapping rod and expander ball after trimming. Will this stress the brass twice as much since it's getting pushed thru a FL sizer twice?

Use a decapping rod with expander ball in the univ decap die on second pass. I would do this, but I can't seem to find a decap rod w/ expander ball that will fit in a univ decap die.

[jmorris]

I size/deprime on #1 on a 650, trim on #3 and have another size/deprime/expander on #5. They were all set with the same case gauge. I then load them on a 1050 with another size/deprime die on #2 and the expander/swage on #3. The extra passes through size/deprime dies don't change any dimentions or add any extra time to the process but do iron out the edges so I don't have any need to debur/chamfer and the bullet feeder on the 1050 works 100%.

[modex]

So the multiple sizings don't put any strain on the brass?

[RiggerJJ]

So the multiple sizings don't put any strain on the brass?

[/quote

Exactly...

that is WHY I decap/size/expand then trim, then stop working the brass. Neck tension is very important for an AR or autoloader. What you get out of the trimmer is perfect. I just bell slightly to get the bullet on without damage, then remove the bell with a crimper.

you can overwork the brass, but the I am not concerned about it because my brass does not stay in my posession long enough. I do think running a expander ball after the the trimmer is unnecessary, and removing the great neck tension the trimmer gives you. Setback in a rifle could be bad...

I keep remembering that video JP did called "gas guns" and giggling about the way he stresses neck tension...

jj

Edited April 11, 2012 by RiggerJJ

[modex]

I just bell slightly to get the bullet on without damage, then remove the bell with a crimper.

This is the part I'm caught up on.. how do you bell a 223 case? Are you using a separate die (like the Lyman M series)? The trim die is going to remove any belling/expanding since it's a full length sizer, right? Or does the trim die not work the neck like regular sizing dies do?

[Chills1994]

RCBS X-sizer die.

trim once to 1.73" and be done with it.

(as long as you get your...YOUR brass back)

[ScottyPotty]

I just bell slightly to get the bullet on without damage, then remove the bell with a crimper.

This is the part I'm caught up on.. how do you bell a 223 case? Are you using a separate die (like the Lyman M series)? The trim die is going to remove any belling/expanding since it's a full length sizer, right? Or does the trim die not work the neck like regular sizing dies do?

You can get the Lee universal neck expander. Or if you have a lee/rcbs sizing die you can run the die up so that you are not sizing the brass again, but you drop the neck expander low enough to bell the case as desired.

The trim die sizes the neck too small, I had mine honed out a little to keep the neck sizing to a minimum

[RiggerJJ]

I just bell slightly to get the bullet on without damage, then remove the bell with a crimper.

This is the part I'm caught up on.. how do you bell a 223 case? Are you using a separate die (like the Lyman M series)? The trim die is going to remove any belling/expanding since it's a full length sizer, right? Or does the trim die not work the neck like regular sizing dies do?

On a 1050 the swage backup rod also has a bell function. Only does the very top of the neck.

jj

[modex]

Okay I knew about the M die but I didn't know Lee made a universal expander too. Looks like they were originally made with cast bullets in mind but they seem to do the trick.

The swage backup rod on the 1050 sounds like it could be viable as well. JJ- have you had any issues with that backup rod going into cases that haven't first been flared by the expanding ball?

The X-Sizer die looks nice if it meant never trimming again. Tho I tend to pick up a lot of once fired 556 at the range, so I think I will always have some brass to trim.

[Chills1994]

Save that miscellaneous range scrounge brass until you got enough for a rainy day project.

[addicted]

I run my lubed brass through my 650 with a standard Dillon decap/ size/ expander in station 1, trim die in station 2. then they get tumbled to remove the lube and get sent through again with no lube and a different tool head set up like this: I run boat tail bullets, and if i didn't have the bullet dropper i wouldn't even need the M die.

1 Lyman M die set to barely flare the mouth for the bullet dropper

2 powder

3 bullet dropper

4 seat

5 crimp

[RiggerJJ]

Okay I knew about the M die but I didn't know Lee made a universal expander too. Looks like they were originally made with cast bullets in mind but they seem to do the trick.

The swage backup rod on the 1050 sounds like it could be viable as well. JJ- have you had any issues with that backup rod going into cases that haven't first been flared by the expanding ball?

The X-Sizer die looks nice if it meant never trimming again. Tho I tend to pick up a lot of once fired 556 at the range, so I think I will always have some brass to trim.

Using a 2 head system; #1 to process brass, #2 to load, not a problem at all.

The processing head first full length sizes, decaps, and expands/trues up the neck for trimmimg. Then the next and last thing done to the brass on the processing head is the dillon rt1200, which as you know trims and sizes, but also leaves the neck tight for good tension on a bullet.

When the brass comes off the processing head it is all ready to load, except for flaring the neck. That is done on the loading head when the swager comes into play. Swager on the 1050 preps the primer pocket AND flairs the case mouth.

jj

[eddiegunks]

Okay I knew about the M die but I didn't know Lee made a universal expander too. Looks like they were originally made with cast bullets in mind but they seem to do the trick.

The swage backup rod on the 1050 sounds like it could be viable as well. JJ- have you had any issues with that backup rod going into cases that haven't first been flared by the expanding ball?

The X-Sizer die looks nice if it meant never trimming again. Tho I tend to pick up a lot of once fired 556 at the range, so I think I will always have some brass to trim.

Using a 2 head system; #1 to process brass, #2 to load, not a problem at all.

The processing head first full length sizes, decaps, and expands/trues up the neck for trimmimg. Then the next and last thing done to the brass on the processing head is the dillon rt1200, which as you know trims and sizes, but also leaves the neck tight for good tension on a bullet.

When the brass comes off the processing head it is all ready to load, except for flaring the neck. That is done on the loading head when the swager comes into play. Swager on the 1050 preps the primer pocket AND flairs the case mouth.

jj

so on the "loading head" do you use a resize die again or not?

thanks

[RiggerJJ]

Okay I knew about the M die but I didn't know Lee made a universal expander too. Looks like they were originally made with cast bullets in mind but they seem to do the trick.

The swage backup rod on the 1050 sounds like it could be viable as well. JJ- have you had any issues with that backup rod going into cases that haven't first been flared by the expanding ball?

The X-Sizer die looks nice if it meant never trimming again. Tho I tend to pick up a lot of once fired 556 at the range, so I think I will always have some brass to trim.

Using a 2 head system; #1 to process brass, #2 to load, not a problem at all.

The processing head first full length sizes, decaps, and expands/trues up the neck for trimmimg. Then the next and last thing done to the brass on the processing head is the dillon rt1200, which as you know trims and sizes, but also leaves the neck tight for good tension on a bullet.

When the brass comes off the processing head it is all ready to load, except for flaring the neck. That is done on the loading head when the swager comes into play. Swager on the 1050 preps the primer pocket AND flairs the case mouth.

jj

so on the "loading head" do you use a resize die again or not?

thanks

No. Put a universal decap die in #1 to clear the primer hole of any stuck tumbling media. I do not do any sizing type stuff after the trim, I feel this gives me the most consistent brass. Just load it and put a slight crimp.

JJ

[PKT1106]

I always ran 2 toolheads for .223 on my 550. Toolhead #1 had sizer/decapper in S1 and trimme rin S3. Toolhead #2 had universal decapper in S1, then the usual go around.

[M Spangler]

i have a ton of .223 waiting to be loaded, so can't speak for that, but i have done 3500 or so .308 loads with the dillon trimmer on a single stage and my 550b.

i did it in two stages, brass prep then a load stage

brass prep

i set up a single stage press with the universal decapping die, decapped everything

then i mass lubed in a bag with dialing spray lube

then i set the trimmer up on the single stage and trimmed everything in one shot

when that was done i ran them through the single stage with an rcbs small base die

then they were all tumbled to remove lube

load

now i went back to the press with nothing in station one. just priming here

powder drop in 2

bullet seat in 3 without crimp (168MK)

nothing in 4

with the 223 i'll go back and do it a little different. i'll add a step and put the decapping die in station one when its time to reload, to help poke out the stuck media, and add in a step to the prep where i swage primer pockets if need be, and add in crimp if the bullet needs it

i mulled it over a few times and tried to figure the best way to keep from overworking the brass. i'm not shooting matches with the .308 and don't plan to so i figure i'll be getting most of it back and might as well keep down on the stress and save some brass life

it seemed excessive to run it through the size die multiple times

its a little back and forth from one press to another and may not work well if you're only running a few hundred at a time but i like running bulk this way. now i can have brass all sized trimmed clean and ready. then when i have some time to load it's just that, easy as loading pistol at that point.

hope this helps, there are a lot of good ideas here and it all depends on the volume you plan to do in one sitting, what press or presses you have and if you care about recovering brass or not. good luck!