What guns do the top limited competitiors shoot?

[Flexmoney]

...That being said would it not be true if you have equipment with some flaws either actual or in your head, it will cause you to take longer to make it to the same level of competition?

What if I told you "no'?

[EngineerEli]

...That being said would it not be true if you have equipment with some flaws either actual or in your head, it will cause you to take longer to make it to the same level of competition?

What if I told you "no'?

I would ask you to explain why, and to try and convince me of your logic

[Carlos]

Tony makes some really good points (as usual). I am like him in that I like heavy framed, light slide guns. I have shot quite a few different combinations of limited guns but actually prefer my old CZ TS that has had the CTS treatment done to it and the slide lightened. With a 5.5" barrel it solves the 5" vs 6" argument with Solomon like wisdom. I know I am in the distinct minority with this choice but I have to say I do find some perverse pleasure in seeing the number of top shooters (and others) putting metal grips on their guns. Still, different strokes for different folks.

I was going to ask about this myself. I'm no M or GM in Limited (or any other division), but I don't feel like my CTS gives up anything to a 2011-type pistol. It limits your accessory and aftermarket choices in everything, but mags that work are readily available for ~$100 finished and hold 20 at minimum. I'm very pleased with mine, other than the grips. And that I'm about to fix.

If you've got a SAO CZ that you shoot well, it's at least worth your while to explore that platform while you're making your choice.

I think the CZ TS (aka Standard IPSC) is one of the best-kept secrets in Limited. I have owned 2 & shot a friend's gun too.

1) The trigger comes from the factory at 2 lbs. It settles in at 1.75 Lbs All 3 gun I tested were this way. Like the STI, the trigger is polymer. You can buy a steel one if you want. And its adjustable.

2) It is reliable and uses factory length ammo. IIRC, the max OAL I could get was 1.170"

3) It is accurate. As in 50 yard A-zone accurate.

4) No customizing needed for reliability. No mag tuning. No trigger job. No "reliability package." And I have never had mine "follow" - the "trigger job" just does not wear out like my SVs & STIs.

If there are any down sides they are: not as many aftermarket parts (don't need them) and its a heavy bitch in stock form.

I still like my STIs & SVs. But the CZ is their equal.

[tackdr1ver]

I would ask yourself how dedicated you are to the sport? What is your current classification, where do you want to go? Are you the type of person who gets wrapped up in a new hobby and dumps it quickly after finding something new or do you tend to stick with things? Also, what have you shot and liked? Budget, etc?

I got hung up on the whole magic gun thing for a while. After getting some really sound advice I decided to stick with my G35 and put the money I would have spent on a new gun into training with a GM who has taken me much farther than a new gun could have in a short period of time. I still have a long way to go, but I have more cash to dedicate to ammo/practice and matches than I would have if I built or bought a super sexy limited blaster.

The only way I would entertain getting a new gun now would be if a deal came along that I would have to be insane to pass up. Sure my G35 isn't super cool looking or the fastest shooting gun out there but, it works every freaking time I need it to and if I do my part, hits everything I point it at. At the SC state match last weekend I saw a lot of really nice blasters. I also saw a lot of hiccups and a ton of lost time because of those hiccups.

I guess it just depends on how involved you want to be?

That being said would it not be true if you have equipment with some flaws either actual or in your head, it will cause you to take longer to make it to the same level of competition? I think especially for the stage I'm in right now, the used gun is still a far better option than a brand new one because of price savings.

-Eli

Like I said, my G35 isn't the fastest cycling or slickest shooting gun out there and I know this. But what I do know is the gun is more accurate than I am at USPSA ranges and goes bang every single time I want it to and hits everything I aim it at if I do my part correctly.

That being said: No I do not think it will cause me to stay in a particular class any longer than any other gun. In fact, I tend to think it would take less time as I know the gun and because it's so reliable. I think a finicky gun that needs super tuned mags, just the right load and a heap of maintenance would actually hold me back as I would probably be spending more time keeping the gun running right than just worrying about my actual shooting. And I think in USPSA matches are won in stage planning, quick decisive movements, crisp & timely mag changes and shooting setups vs simply pulling the trigger real fast.

With all this being said: I am not biased towards any one gun over the other. Sure I like the nice 2011's and I sure as heck wouldn't turn a free one down(or even a super great deal). I just think that at this stage of the game for both you and I (I just made B this past weekend), our time would be better spent practicing using what we have rather than looking for the miracle panacea in a gun sized package.

But if you have the scratch to buy a real slick blaster and must have one, go for it! Just don't expect it to turn you into an A-GM shooter, only practice and experience can do that.

Good luck whatever you do!

[ima45dv8]

Eli,

The premise of your inquiry seems to be to learn what the top dogs are shooting and emulate that. I get where you're coming from and trying to go, but frankly, you don't know what you want, and we can't tell you.

In broad strokes: take the advice previously given to buy something that fits your current budget, buy ammo or components to fit it, and then shoot the pure piss out of it. While doing the aforementioned pure-piss-shooting, you'll have a chance to fondle and shoot many guns at matches if you let your intentions be known. Armed with that knowledge and experience you can then search out the gun that's right for you because you'll have a better idea of just exactly what that particular platform is.

Happy trails...

[ChrisMcCracken]

Hey guys, this is good stuff for a lot of us beginners to read and take to heart. Like OP, I'm in much the same boat of dreaming of that awesome limited blaster. Meanwhile I've got a very functional old school 1911 that shoots better than I do. It's not Limited but it is L-10 and it is completely worthy of the being shot-the-piss-out-of until I can save up for a 2011 in 1-2 years. To the OP, you're not alone in this internal struggle. To the veterans that so willingly give us the advice we often read but don't understand or aren't ready to understand, thank you.

Chris

[JimmyZip]

Eli,

The premise of your inquiry seems to be to learn what the top dogs are shooting and emulate that. I get where you're coming from and trying to go, but frankly, you don't know what you want, and we can't tell you.

In broad strokes: take the advice previously given to buy something that fits your current budget, buy ammo or components to fit it, and then shoot the pure piss out of it. While doing the aforementioned pure-piss-shooting, you'll have a chance to fondle and shoot many guns at matches if you let your intentions be known. Armed with that knowledge and experience you can then search out the gun that's right for you because you'll have a better idea of just exactly what that particular platform is.

Happy trails...

and......you can get great deals here on the forums, and sell your stuff when you uprgrade. So there you go.

[caspian guy]

The other thing I might add (though it is a bit off topic) is to spend a bit of the money you were considering spending on a new gun on a competition class from a good trainer. I suspect that would probably help you get farther faster.

Edited April 6, 2012 by caspian guy

[EngineerEli]

While this thread did not go in the direction I had intended it to, I think it ended up being even more helpful than I expected for me and other new shooters to understand what it takes to gear up and improve your skills.

At my point I am ready for a new gun, and based on what I have shot and researched, if I don't get something 2011 based, I'm always going to wonder if I went the wrong rout. I will say the CZ TS's are great guns! The deal I found on one, and the great features it has makes sense to me to invest in right now, so I am planning on going ahead and doing it. While it is a lot of cash I think the gun has all the bells and whistles needed to keep me from making up excuses about my gear as I progress forward. The best part of this thread is the fact that reminds me that guns hold their value really well, and this WILL NOT be the last gun I buy. When or if I decide I want something new and shiny, or decide this gun just isn't for me, it will show up here on the classifieds, and Ill try something else.

Thanks Again Everyone!

-Eli

[EngineerEli]

The other thing I might add (though it is a bit off topic) is to spend a bit of the money you were considering spending on a new gun on a competition class from a good trainer. I suspect that would probably help you get farther faster.

I did mention a few posts ago, I just took a three day competitive shooting class last month, which was REALLY HELPFUL! It exposed a lot of flaws in my shooting, but also a few in my gear.

[pjb45]

It was not all that long ago, I was like you. I digested every thread on this forum. It helped me a lot to understand aspects of this sport that I was clueless about.

I cannot stress enough the importance of a good trainer. Back then, there was not a whole lot of training material out there. Matt Burkett really produced some fine DVDs. Luckily I had an opportunity to meet and shoot with some very fine shooters, whose advice I really tried to follow.

Right now, I would say Mike Seeklander's book and DVDs are the best foundation for self-learning. His approach is best for someone like me.

Second, having equipment that is reliable is paramount to success. The pistol does not have to shoot 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards to be extremely competitive. But it has to work every time, you have to have confidence that it will work every time. A few years ago this was a critical issue. Too many guns and magazines had issues. Most of those consistent problems have been reduced significantly, they still exist just not in the volume as before.

Third, practice; dry fire and live fire. The amount of improvement that comes from dry fire is incredible. Live fire drills that establish a sound foundation are more important than you might believe.

Fourth, for me was ammo. I was using factory 45 ACP. The recoil and muzzle flip really impeded my progress. I was truly amazed at how much easier and better I shot with ammo at a 170 PF. That coupled with a good trigger job added to my confidence level.

The bottom line is the 'awesome' pistol is really secondary to all the above. Get something that works for you and improve. I believe Taran made GM in multiple divisions in one year using a Glock. Steve Anderson made it in Open via intense dry fire training. It wasn't the gun that put them there, it was their desire to improve and a commitment to excellence.

[wgj3]

I may have missed it if anyone else has mentioned it, but I didn't see anyone mention the fact that you are probably going to want to upgrade from a single-stage to a progressive press in the very near future. Keep in mind that this project is going to set you back a few bucks as well.

Other than that, I think that you have read most all of the thoughts that I have had while going through the same process as you. I started shooting IDPA(CDP) and USPSA (SS & L-10) with a 1911. I spent 2 seasons getting ragged about needing more ammo per magazine. I got a ton of reloading practice during that time. I had to make the move to limited on a budget, so I went with the M&P. It's been awesome and has almost always gone bang if I did my part with the ammo. I just happened upon a great deal on a 6" 2011, ad I snatched it up as quick as I could. I have no notion that the new gun is going to immediately elevate my ability, but I am happy to have the opportunity to try it. I have found out that it makes hitting small targets at longer distances much easier.

Like others have said, go with what you think is going to work best for you. DEFINITELY try (patiently) to find a used version of what you think you want to start with. I can almost guarantee that there will be something that you want to change after shooting the gun for a little while. After you get some time behind the platform that you like, then you will be better prepared to pick the features that you want in a new "custom" built pistol if you still feel the need to go that route.

[ChandlerSniper158]

Eli,

The premise of your inquiry seems to be to learn what the top dogs are shooting and emulate that. I get where you're coming from and trying to go, but frankly, you don't know what you want, and we can't tell you.

In broad strokes: take the advice previously given to buy something that fits your current budget, buy ammo or components to fit it, and then shoot the pure piss out of it. While doing the aforementioned pure-piss-shooting, you'll have a chance to fondle and shoot many guns at matches if you let your intentions be known. Armed with that knowledge and experience you can then search out the gun that's right for you because you'll have a better idea of just exactly what that particular platform is.

Happy trails...

Best post in the thread... OP you are definitely an engineer. Your over thinking the shit out of something you have already decided.

Oh yeah... I shoot a STI.. : )

Edited April 10, 2012 by ChandlerSniper158

[Mike Dame]

Got my Limited/L-10 M cards with factory built Edges that I tweeked slightly. In a few more months (hopefully) I'll be shooting SV's. 5" sight trackers, full length excelerator dustcovers, evil bubble signature grips.

If you look at the stats from the Limited nats you'll see that the S_I's make up the massive majority of guns used

Edited April 10, 2012 by Mike Dame

[hax]

Here's a page with pics of people's guns and a lot of people have their classification listed in their signatures

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6195

[EduardoM]

... I just want to have the data on what gear the top shooter use.

Most years, there is a thread on what the top 10 or so used at the Nationals. Look it up on the search page. (unless you have already made up your mind and just want confirmation to bolster your choice, because you won't really get that from the data).

I can run it down pretty quick. I don't think anybody has won the Limited Nationals with an SV. Smitty was the 2nd to win with an STI. There might have been a "McCormick" frame used back in the day (which is really the same as an STI/SV frame). Caspian, Para & Springfield won most of the Nationals other than that (because of who was shooting them). Glock gets there with 2 of the best iron sighted shooters in the game running them.

If you are comparing STI's and SV's and any other variation of the 1911...you are really comparing gunsmiths and components used. Everybody is going to have their favorites...including their sponsors. Which is fine...as most of those that have been around long enough to have a name in our game make good stuff.

Smitty is the current USPSA Limited National Champion. He has bragging rights!

* disclaimer...I was one of the early guys to make GM with a Glock.

Smitty's gun was built by Millennium Customs

[EngineerEli]

Wow I didn't realize this thread is already 3 pages. It's awesome that so many people are so eager to help, and give advice.

Many of you have given great advice and through this whole process. I know realize I am trying to rationalize buying what I already knew I wanted. A metal gripped SV, probably a used one to save money until I'm sure I love everything about it. Then down the road once I really figure out ever little thing I prefer I can factory order the perfect one for me. (Or something completely different for that matter)

A pm conversation I had with one member here provided me with the following, which at least for me, I found helpful to straighten out my thoughts.

---------------------------------------

With my Limited gun, I did the same pro/con list. When it came to a Limited gun, I wanted a 2011. I was going to buy an STI Eagle in .40 so I could shoot IDPA if I wanted to (bushing barrel, no long dustcover). I also didn't want to buy used. I've seen too many folks abuse their guns to buy one unless I really know the guy I'm buying from. So here's what I came up with:

Used STI/SVI Custom:

Probably ~$2500 before magazines

Magazines run $150 each for tuned mags

Must reload (which I do) - most STI/SVI's won't run with factory .40

Unknown pedigree

Great trigger

Great ergonomics like my 1911

Great ambidextrous safety

Fantastic aftermarket parts availability

Fantastic accessories (holsters, etc)

Total cost to get going (with holster and mags ~$3000)

New STI Eagle or Edge:

~$2000 before magazines

Magazines run $150 each for tuned mags

Must reload (which I do) - most STI/SVI's won't run with factory .40

Some work great out of the box, some don't

OK trigger

Needs a better magazine well

Great ergonomics like my 1911

OK ambidextrous safety

Fantastic aftermarket parts availability

Fantastic accessories (holsters, etc)

Total cost to get going (with holster and mags ~ $2500)

CZ Custom Shop CTS:

$2000 with 3 race-ready magazines (can upgrade springs for another round per mag)

New mags run ~$100 and don't need tuning to hold 20 or 21

Can run reloads or factory (nice to be able to hit Wal Mart on the way to a match!)

Already has all of the "custom" work done

Great trigger (mine is 1 lb 12 oz)

Huge mag well

OK ambidextrous safety

Great ergonomics like my CZ Shadow

Poor aftermarket parts availability

Poor accessories (Blade-Tec is about the only holster other than DAA)

Total cost to get going (with holster and mags ~$2100)

Your weighting of factors may be different obviously. Just realize that your next gun won't be your last one.

----------------------------------------------------------

And yes.......I have over though the living daylights out of this, lol! But that's what I do

Thanks again,

Eli

[RIIID]

You forgot,

Tanfoglio Limited Witness, under $2,000.00 to get rollin'

XDm 5.25 4P+ under $1,800.00 to get goin'

Caspian HC frame $2,800.00 to start

Springfield HC frame $2,800.00 to get started

Rich

[hax]

Many of you have given great advice and through this whole process. I know realize I am trying to rationalize buying what I already knew I wanted. A metal gripped SV, probably a used one to save money until I'm sure I love everything about it. Then down the road once I really figure out ever little thing I prefer I can factory order the perfect one for me. (Or something completely different for that matter)

Just FYI, you can have just about any good gunsmith put an SVI grip on your build. Just don't limit yourself. I'm currently having one built into my gun by Matt.

[ChandlerSniper158]

Damn.. you such an engineer!!! lol

Used STI/SVI Custom:

Probably ~$2500 before magazines (If you look you can find a decent pistol for under $2500 with magazines) I got one with 4 SV mags for $2250

Magazines run $150 each for tuned mags (Brazos sells a set of 4 tuned mags for $500, and individual mags are $125 each.)

Must reload (which I do) - most STI/SVI's won't run with factory .40 ( no you don`t. DC Ammo, a member on here, will sell you major caliber reloaded ammo that`s guaranteed to make PF, until you can get yourself set up to load, at a very reasonable price. )

Fixed those for ya..

[59Bassman]

Damn.. you such an engineer!!! lol

Used STI/SVI Custom:

Probably ~$2500 before magazines (If you look you can find a decent pistol for under $2500 with magazines) I got one with 4 SV mags for $2250

Magazines run $150 each for tuned mags (Brazos sells a set of 4 tuned mags for $500, and individual mags are $125 each.)

Must reload (which I do) - most STI/SVI's won't run with factory .40 ( no you don`t. DC Ammo, a member on here, will sell you major caliber reloaded ammo that`s guaranteed to make PF, until you can get yourself set up to load, at a very reasonable price. )

Fixed those for ya..

In Eli's defense, I sent him that list; it was what I went through in my decision making process for selecting a limited gun earlier this year. At the time, I was not seeing any SV pistols being sold for under $2500, and magazines were never included extra. Certainly a lower round count SVI was going for $2500 or above at that time. Magazines, OK, maybe not $150 for tuned mags. $125. The comparison was with a CZ TS mag which is built up for ~$100 and will run 20 or 21 with no tuning.

Finally, on the loaded ammo, I understand that some folks will sell major long-loaded ammo, but the point was that if you're on your way to a match and realize you've forgotten your long-loaded ammo and you're shooting a 2011 you're likely screwed. There are other pistols out there that will make major with $30/100 Wal-Mart ammo. I've yet to see DC Ammo for sale at any store anywhere near one of the ranges I shoot at.

As I explained to Eli, this was the process I used to select my own limited gun, and his criteria weighting might be different. I ended up with a CZ CTS, and I don't regret that choice at all. However as I pointed out, I'm not a M or GM shooter, so my opinions are suspect.

[ChandlerSniper158]

Damn.. you such an engineer!!! lol

Used STI/SVI Custom:

Probably ~$2500 before magazines (If you look you can find a decent pistol for under $2500 with magazines) I got one with 4 SV mags for $2250

Magazines run $150 each for tuned mags (Brazos sells a set of 4 tuned mags for $500, and individual mags are $125 each.)

Must reload (which I do) - most STI/SVI's won't run with factory .40 ( no you don`t. DC Ammo, a member on here, will sell you major caliber reloaded ammo that`s guaranteed to make PF, until you can get yourself set up to load, at a very reasonable price. )

Fixed those for ya..

In Eli's defense, I sent him that list; it was what I went through in my decision making process for selecting a limited gun earlier this year. At the time, I was not seeing any SV pistols being sold for under $2500, and magazines were never included extra. Certainly a lower round count SVI was going for $2500 or above at that time. Magazines, OK, maybe not $150 for tuned mags. $125. The comparison was with a CZ TS mag which is built up for ~$100 and will run 20 or 21 with no tuning.

Finally, on the loaded ammo, I understand that some folks will sell major long-loaded ammo, but the point was that if you're on your way to a match and realize you've forgotten your long-loaded ammo and you're shooting a 2011 you're likely screwed. There are other pistols out there that will make major with $30/100 Wal-Mart ammo. I've yet to see DC Ammo for sale at any store anywhere near one of the ranges I shoot at.

As I explained to Eli, this was the process I used to select my own limited gun, and his criteria weighting might be different. I ended up with a CZ CTS, and I don't regret that choice at all. However as I pointed out, I'm not a M or GM shooter, so my opinions are suspect.

It wasn`t a slam at him or you for that matter.. I was just commenting on the points of the S_I list I noted. I got a good deal on my pistol no doubt, a custom built STI with less than 2000 rds thru it, with 4 SV mags doesn`t come along too often, but they are out there if you look.

As far as the ammo.. if your shooting a S_I and you are going to a match and forgot your ammo.. doom on you...

I hope he truly gets exactly what he wants, and enjoys shooting the piss out of it.

CS

Edited April 12, 2012 by ChandlerSniper158

[diehli]

most STI/SVI's won't run with factory .40

Then "most" are built wrong.

[EngineerEli]

Thanks RIID for the additions, those are all also viable options. They just weren't the ones i had narrowed it down to. If someone else is just starting their selection process, definitely at least consider those as well.

Oh, and just so you all know i too no offense to anything posted. This forum is MUCH more civil than the Mazdaspeed forum I am on

The seller of this gun did suggest it ran best on long loaded ammo. (1.220") Diehli, what do you mean my most are built wrong??? When I get it I plan on trying a few different lengths of ammo, but it would be nice to know i can run standard length in a jam. Should a factory built SVI reliably cycle standard and long loaded ammo?

-Eli

[diehli]

The Benny Hill-built 6" Limited gun I had ran anything and everything I stuffed into the mags. Longer rounds fed somewhat smoother, but there was never an issue with shorter ones.

Some commentary suggests that the problem is that 2011s are based on 1911s, which are built around .45 ACP, a longer round and, thus, can't be made to work with short ammo like .40 and 9mm. That's complete bunk. If you hear it from a gunsmith, find another gunsmith, fast.

Yes, there are issues with controlling the round through the cycle (specifically, between when the round is being stripped from the mag, heading up under the extractor, hitting the feed ramp, and getting into the chamber), but if the gun and mags are put together right, it's moot.

For reference, there are many 9mm Open guns out there, running spacers in STI mags because the dimension of the round doesn't work well with the ribs in STI mags. As a result many folks are running 9mm rounds at around 1.165". SAAMI spec on .40 S&W is 1.135".

It's not voodoo.