Multi-Club Matches

[Neil Beverley]

My apologies if I'm reading this wrongly but I think there is a misconception about the ease, or rather the difficulty, of running an IPSC style Tournament. It is virtually as easy as running 2 separate handgun matches, anywhere, any time. I'll try to give an easy example.

Club A puts on a 4 stage Handgun match on the first Saturday in the month. It is scored and final results produced. There can be/will be a match winner.

Club B puts on a 4 stage Shotgun match on the second Saturday in the month. It is scored and final results produced. There can be/will be a match winner.

The Tournament consists of the these 2 matches. A total of 8 stages. Tournament results are calculated by adding the percentage from match A (treat the percentage figures as points) to the percentage from match B for each competitor. e.g Competitor XYZ gets 83.92 % in match A and 78.31% in match B. His Tournament result is simply the sum of 83.92 + 78.3, i.e. 162.23 tournament points.

The Tournament result could be calculated in the evening or even on the following Monday. It doesn't need special software. It doesn't need a change to EZWin. Excel would help but how long would it take to add 2 numbers together for 50 competitors manually? The tournament results are very easy to create.

The example given above could easily be Saturday at one club and Sunday at another. Or Saturday at both clubs if they are fairly close with the competitors shooting a morning at one and an afternoon at the other.

A single club can put together a Tournament like the one above by running the handgun stages one weekend and themselves running the shotgun stages a week, or 2 weeks later.

In reality the Tournament results should be fairly easily available in a very short amount of extra time on the last day of the last match.

I've used handgun and shotgun in my example above but it could easily be shotgun and rifle, or handgun and rifle, or all 3.

The Tournament rules are available on both the IPSC and the USPSA websites. Only 2 1/2 pages of rules/notes + 2 tables. Easy stuff guys, have a look.

Any queries will be happily answered by myself or Vince.

[Vince Pinto]

I am proposing that the DQ be for the Overall Big Match, which while it consists of the component matches is entirely seperate from them. If you DQ at one match component, you are DQ'd there, and for the Big Match, but not for the other components.

That's not possible under the rules. A Match DQ applies to a single match, not to the larger whatever (League or Tournament).

This would be the same as a league where you count the top 3 of 5 approved matches. If you DQ'd at one that would obviously not be one you counted, but you could still shoot the rest.

You're contradicting yourself. In the earlier quote you said you would also be out for the big match. However the USPSA Points Series is a League so, if you DQ at a component match, you can still use results of other component matches to remain in the running for overall honours in the Point Series (the League).

In other words, again, a Match DQ applies to a single match, not to the larger whatever (League or Tournament).

You might want to call it a league, but we are requiring that you shoot all the component matches to qualify, we are scoring all the component matches together as one large match.

That's not possible either under the rules. You effectively want to treat separate matches as stages of a larger beast. The only way you can combine match results is to have a League or Tournament, but a DQ at any component match means, at worst, your score for that component match counts as zero towards the League or Tournament.

BDH wants to conduct separate stages of the same match at different ranges, on one or more days, and that's entirely possible under the rules.

[Shipster]

Tri County and DunDee have done it several time here in area 1 check this Link it is our area 1 Columbia Cascade section Championships.

[Flexmoney]

Looks like there are a couple of options...and, it seems we have the rules in place to allow this to happen. We just need to "bone up" on the rules to make sure we address teh (new to many) format correctly.

To recap..we have about three options so far?

1. Tourny

2. Points Series

3. One Big Match

[Jim Norman]

I am proposing that the DQ be for the Overall Big Match, which while it consists of the component matches is entirely seperate from them. If you DQ at one match component, you are DQ'd there, and for the Big Match, but not for the other components.

That's not possible under the rules. A Match DQ applies to a single match, not to the larger whatever (League or Tournament).

Maybe we need to address this from a rules point of view, but I think that we should be able to do what has been sugested here. Run three seperate HG matches, and combine them for a Bigger Match. You are in all three seperate form the Bigger Match. If you DQ at any one, you are out of the Bigger Match, but you can still shoot the other components since they stand alone. Call it a league or whatever you want to. It is a valid idea to get more people shooting this sport at more clubs more often. If the Bigger match has to be an Outlaw addition, then so be it. I think we should be able to agree to accomodate this format.

This would be the same as a league where you count the top 3 of 5 approved matches. If you DQ'd at one that would obviously not be one you counted, but you could still shoot the rest.

You're contradicting yourself. In the earlier quote you said you would also be out for the big match. However the USPSA Points Series is a League so, if you DQ at a component match, you can still use results of other component matches to remain in the running for overall honours in the Point Series (the League).

In other words, again, a Match DQ applies to a single match, not to the larger whatever (League or Tournament).

The answer is it all depends, were you registered for the Bigger Match? if yes, then you are out of the bigger match, but you are shooting the seperate matches as seperate matches so you are only out of the one you DQ'd in. Think of it this way, we are counting the component matches twice, you get two matches for the price of the ammo to shoot one.

You might want to call it a league, but we are requiring that you shoot all the component matches to qualify, we are scoring all the component matches together as one large match.

That's not possible either under the rules. You effectively want to treat separate matches as stages of a larger beast. The only way you can combine match results is to have a League or Tournament, but a DQ at any component match means, at worst, your score for that component match counts as zero towards the League or Tournament.

BDH wants to conduct separate stages of the same match at different ranges, on one or more days, and that's entirely possible under the rules.

Whch is what I am saying, except that you can shoot the local matches as stand alone matches at the local clubs. Your combined scores are then used for the Bigger Match. You are not shooting a seperate entity. If the rules need a tweaking, then this is a place to do it I suppose. I would just run with this and see if it generates any real world interst first, then we can set up a study group to see how the wording needs to be to make it work.

To start, we need to keep it simple or it will never get off the ground.

I will approach my AD as soon as he is done with the A8 championships to get his imput and move ahead from there.

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Jim,

I think the current rules support everything you have mentioned...except the Big Match DQ (for DQ'ing at a smaller match).

I know you don't agree with that (and some others don't either), but that issue has been hashed about. The rules we have in place cover the administration of the idea at hand. Let's not add to them, or try some "outlaw" approach.

[Jim Norman]

Essentially Kyle, you are saying treat it as a Tournament. I can agree just to make it happen, but will continue to disagree in the principle.

I will start the ball rolling here this week maybe.

Jim

[BDH]

All, great discussion. I LIKE it!!

Kyle, I just realized that your avatar will soon be illegal under the 15th ed rules. You need to fix that!

[Flexmoney]

I don't have the power to fix that rule.

[mactiger]

Good one!

[Vince Pinto]

[Skywalker]

Nice idea Vince...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ndpost&p=108774

[Barrettone]

Two clubs up here in Michigan were talking to Gary Stevens about hosting a 14 stage 3-gun this year using two clubs scores. We were going to have two tournaments the same weekend. The first would be the state handgun, whose results would be used for the 3 gun tournament held the same weekend. Four day format (Thurs-Fri). Instead, we opted for a changeover, with handgun shooting on Thursday, switching to long gun for Friday and Saturday, and then back to handgun on Sunday. All stages were video witnessed, pictures taken, and witness spikes put in place to insure a precise return to the COF that were set on Friday. We still got 14 stages, and everybody seems to have had an awesome time. It is amazing what you can do by changing a few walls, moving some targets, and reversing traffic flow on a stage...It seems totally different from one day to the next. We are trying to show how a nats could be pulled off with either a combined effort with two clubs, or by a changeover team at one club, or both. We would like to see the nats at more than 5 or 6 locations throughout the country...possibly rotated between all 8 areas. We're just trying to think outside the box. Just my .02 FWIW.

Jeff

[Vince Pinto]

Jeff,

Congratulations - it all sounds great and, merely as an observer, I think it would be a fantastic idea to use the "multi-club" format to bid for the USPSA Nationals. Sure, there will be additional logistical challenges, but none which are insurmountable.

And I'm sure Mike Voigt and the BOD would be thrilled to have a much larger "Menu of Venues" from which to choose.