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Fast c, or a slower a?


twister

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I can tell my experience. I start shooting at the end of october.

My instructor want me to shoot all A's.

And now I shoot stage more then 90% of alphas

ok but it's not enoght to win.. why? because u have to move fast.. and shot with different splits.

So now I am working on time. fast when the target is near , slow far..etc..

I have the tendency to shoot at the same splits.... loosing time! a lot of time!

But begin with the alpha's... the time u have to run will come... when u'll be ready..

My first match.. I tried to run.. and I forgot mag change, I missed targets..

terrible.. after this .. "relax is smooth and smooth is fast" ..;)

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I only go for alpha's in a training, when you are training time isn't such an important thing, better pay attention to accuracy and how to choose positions, train different positions espacially the one's you don't like or wich are difficult for you, etc etc etc.

like a top shooter once said: "ONLY SHOOT AS FAST AS YOU CAN SHOOT ALPHA'S"

but then another shooter once said to me:"IF YOU ONLY SHOOT ALPHA'S, YOU AREN'T GOING FAST ENOUGH"

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but then another shooter once said to me:"IF YOU ONLY SHOOT ALPHA'S, YOU AREN'T GOING FAST ENOUGH"

That one I don't buy. When I was shooting at my best, I could shoot A's as fast as I could shoot hits.

be

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if you're getting 95% of points, your going too slow.

No... Look at last year's Nationals winners. Every single one of them shot at least 94% of the points available before penalties. Every single one. That is not a coincidence.

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Your shooting "Speed" should be driven by your vision and shot calling process. Only a bunch of practice shooting full and partial targets at different distances will give you the proper experience to visually process and understand what is or isn't an acceptable sight picture for any given target. Knowing how refined a sight picture needs to be for any given target to ensure A zone hits is a MUST HAVE skill to effectively call your shots. The physical speed of the shooting at that point will be mainly driven by your ability to manage the recoil well keeping the sights tracking properly and returning to a valid sight alignment quickly.

Most B Class and below shooters use a predetermined shooting speed cadence and then try to see the sights well enough to keep up with the gun in an attempt to call their shots. Most M & GM class shooters use the sight picture on target as a Good/Bad visual input to initiate the breaking of the shot. I can't speak for other GM's but for me I know that as soon as the sight picture looks good enough on the target the shot breaks automatically without even thinking about pulling the trigger. The thought of "Pull the trigger now" when shooting a stage does not happen. My primary goal is to get the gun on target as soon as possible and once the sight picture is on target the shot automatically breaks. When the shot breaks I call it Good or Bad then proceed as need subconsciously to either make it up if called bad or move onto the next shot/target if it was called good.

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if you're getting 95% of points, your going too slow.

No... Look at last year's Nationals winners. Every single one of them shot at least 94% of the points available before penalties. Every single one. That is not a coincidence.

What is it they say about "rules of thumb?" Ah yes, they don't always apply, especially to the exceptional. :cheers:

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Most M & GM class shooters use the sight picture on target as a Good/Bad visual input to initiate the breaking of the shot.

Oh man, this sums up one of my biggest hurdles when it comes to gaining better consistency. I've definitely built some bad habits out of shooting from a cadence instead of visual input. As far as I'm concerned until I can break that habit I'm still a B class shooter in an M class disguise. Ask me how easy it is to turn a 90+% run into a 60% run by dropping one shot into the white or black because you pulled the trigger without seeing what you needed to see... and that's only for classifiers!

BE is right. You have to call each and every shot you send downrange.

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if you're getting 95% of points, your going too slow.

No... Look at last year's Nationals winners. Every single one of them shot at least 94% of the points available before penalties. Every single one. That is not a coincidence.

What is it they say about "rules of thumb?" Ah yes, they don't always apply, especially to the exceptional. :cheers:

I'm still not with you here. Regardless of skill level or division, the optimal percentage in terms of balancing speed and accuracy is to shoot as fast as you can earn 93-95% of the points available.

Why? Because at the top of the game, where the top 3-5 finishers in a division are as near as makes no difference to equal skill levels, the guys who are coming out on top are the ones shooting those kinds of point percentages as efficiently as possible, without exception.

You're free to shoot however you want of course, but you're choosing to ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary... This is like those old Weaver guys saying Isosceles is only good if you shoot IPSC, when in reality it's the best stance for getting fast and accurate hits no matter what your target is. Shooting 93-95% of the points is the best way to succeed in this game no matter what your skill level.

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Shoot slow, MOVE fast. Faster shots will come naturally. Aim for a 85-90% available point score. If you're shooting 70% of points, you're going too fast (or your accuracy has real issues), if you're getting 95% of points, your going too slow.

+1

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if you're getting 95% of points, your going too slow.

No... Look at last year's Nationals winners. Every single one of them shot at least 94% of the points available before penalties. Every single one. That is not a coincidence.

What is it they say about "rules of thumb?" Ah yes, they don't always apply, especially to the exceptional. :cheers:

I'm still not with you here. Regardless of skill level or division, the optimal percentage in terms of balancing speed and accuracy is to shoot as fast as you can earn 93-95% of the points available.

Why? Because at the top of the game, where the top 3-5 finishers in a division are as near as makes no difference to equal skill levels, the guys who are coming out on top are the ones shooting those kinds of point percentages as efficiently as possible, without exception.

You're free to shoot however you want of course, but you're choosing to ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary... This is like those old Weaver guys saying Isosceles is only good if you shoot IPSC, when in reality it's the best stance for getting fast and accurate hits no matter what your target is. Shooting 93-95% of the points is the best way to succeed in this game no matter what your skill level.

I don't think it's overwhelming evidence. I think it is a common mis-reading of the data.

If you step back, you will notice that it is a speed focus.

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if you're getting 95% of points, your going too slow.

No... Look at last year's Nationals winners. Every single one of them shot at least 94% of the points available before penalties. Every single one. That is not a coincidence.

What is it they say about "rules of thumb?" Ah yes, they don't always apply, especially to the exceptional. :cheers:

I'm still not with you here. Regardless of skill level or division, the optimal percentage in terms of balancing speed and accuracy is to shoot as fast as you can earn 93-95% of the points available.

Why? Because at the top of the game, where the top 3-5 finishers in a division are as near as makes no difference to equal skill levels, the guys who are coming out on top are the ones shooting those kinds of point percentages as efficiently as possible, without exception.

You're free to shoot however you want of course, but you're choosing to ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary... This is like those old Weaver guys saying Isosceles is only good if you shoot IPSC, when in reality it's the best stance for getting fast and accurate hits no matter what your target is. Shooting 93-95% of the points is the best way to succeed in this game no matter what your skill level.

I don't think it's overwhelming evidence. I think it is a common mis-reading of the data.

If you step back, you will notice that it is a speed focus.

I think so, too, Kyle. Here's some data from my past few matches...

Last weekend, winner of Production shot 88.86% of available. He's a high B-Class shooter. In that same match, I shot 84.29% after losing 40 points in penalties (not my best performance) and got third place.

In an earlier match, the winner of Prod shot 89.20%, also a high B-Class shooter. I shot 91.20% and no penalties, yet still got 3rd place.

Another match, winner shot 89.30%, a GM at that. I shot 92.46% or 88.95% with 20 points in penalties and got third place (again, but after one GM and one M).

According to my history of data, it's clear that the reason I'm not placing first in these cases is because I'm just not fast enough in getting the same level of points. For me to aim for even a higher percentage of points, I would have to SLOW DOWN, given my current SKILL LEVEL.

Edited by ErichF
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For a shooter just starting out, wouldn't it make sense to shoot as slow as you have to to get all Alpha's? That's what I started to do in my first USPSA match this past weekend...just made sense to me that if I worried about speed as opposed to having a good sight picture and calling my shots that I'd be skipping alot of the learning of fundamentals that I need. (I tried to go faster in the third stage I was in - I feel like I missed out on some experience time doing the right things.) I figure that if I go out there blasting faster than I can get a great sight picture it's just gonna be luck if I get good hits...

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I think you guys are missing the main point here. The ultimate goal or strategy for any stage run is to capture 100% of the stage points. You will vary rarely see a top level shooter purposefully choose to NOT aim for A zone hits. In the top level of this game all of the top shooters are able to shoot the stages in pretty much the same stage time. What separates them is how many points they are down. So don't fool yourself into thinking that ANY amount of points down is acceptable.

The higher skilled shooters are able to shoot A's "faster" because their mechanics, recoil management, and shot calling skills allow them to break the shot as SOON as possible. I hate using the word "Fast" when referencing the actual shooting process. I instead like to use a comment like "I strive to shoot as soon as I can call my shots effectively". When I am shooting a stage I could care less of how long I spend on engaging a specific target. I know that if I am processing the sight picture as soon as I can see it the shooting will happen as "fast" as it can. If I want the proper sight picture to present its self sooner then I need to practice on improving and optimizing my mechanics, recoil management, and shot calling skills.

The main problem most B class and lower shooters have when they try to shoot fast is that they are shooting at "Brown" instead of picking a specific place on the target to aim at. If you are calling your shots on "Brown" who knows what quality of hits you will have. You are simply hoping that your shots hit the target anywhere. Doing this sacrifices a ton of points. When you optimize your mechanics, recoil management and shot calling skills it takes ZERO extra time to aim at a specific location on a target and break two called shots in the A zone. Verses pointing your gun at "Brown" and slapping the trigger twice trying to go fast and hoping that your hits will be there.

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I think you guys are missing the main point here. The ultimate goal or strategy for any stage run is to capture 100% of the stage points. You will vary rarely see a top level shooter purposefully choose to NOT aim for A zone hits. In the top level of this game all of the top shooters are able to shoot the stages in pretty much the same stage time. What separates them is how many points they are down. So don't fool yourself into thinking that ANY amount of points down is acceptable.

Excellent summary! (In other words - I like that a lot.)

be

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I think the KISS rule (keep it simple stupid) very much applies to this aspect of practical shooting. I don't try to figure out the whole scoring/ hit factor thing for each particular stage. I just keep it simple, and make it my intention to shoot all A's. I can't imagine someone intentionally shooting C's, D's and misses so they don't fall with in a certain percentage. :unsure:

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I can't imagine someone intentionally shooting C's, D's and misses so they don't fall with in a certain percentage. :unsure:

Why do you guys keep saying this? No one ever suggested that one INTENTIONALLY shoot for lower points. Of course we all aim for A's. Guys, the point is that there is a trade off. Sure, I could shoot 100% of points, but the trade off is a 10 minute course of fire! THAT is not "acceptable" So, the compromise is to go a little faster, understanding that there will be a reduction in percentage. I think the whole key is finding your comfort zone in that you maximize points accrual while doing it in the shortest amount of time. After all, that is the product of Hit Factor, no?

Chris, have you ever shot a perfect match? Has anyone, ever? Whatever the number is for a given level of shooter, there is some "sweet spot" percentage that reality just dictates...whether it's 90%, 95% or whatever. When we say "shoot for 90% of points," it is only to give some visualization of the speed/accuracy equation. Again, a rule of thumb. Do I make this an active thought while I'm planning a course of fire, no. I try to do stages as simply as possible, as accurate as possible, and as fast as I can too. Simple is usually efficient. But, when the dust settles, part of MY metric analysis is percentage shot. If I'm around 90%, I'm happy with how I did. The next match, I try to push hard for better times. If I still have 90% of the points after upping my game, I know I'm improving over all. Talk about simple.

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I understand what you're saying, and it makes since. Although I set out to shoot 100% of the points, I also kind of use the 90% level to gauge how I'm doing. Below 90% of the points, I'm disappointed, no matter how I placed in the match.

Having said all that, and considering that I often intentionally go too fast to shoot all A's, it's safer for me to have the mind set to never settle for anything less than 100 percent of the points. Keep in mind that I'm only talking about Chris, and nobody else. I don't ever want to have the mindset that I'm going too slow if I'm getting too many A's, and I certainly don't ever imply that it's ok to sacrifice points for speed when I'm talking with a new shooter. Again, these are my thoughts, and aren't meant to criticize anybody else. There's reality, and then there is what should be. We both have been shooting long enough to know what reality is....it's not intentional, but kind of is!

Oh, by the way, you are doing very well, and have improved immensely since you started. I've missed shooting with you the last couple of months. Hope to see you at area 6. I can hardly wait to get down there.

Chris

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As a new shooter, I think the thing that gets to me most is my excitement to shoot the stage. All motor fuctions, mind to muscle communications are cut off, and I just run and gun as fast as I can. Prime example, last weeks classifier, I blew through it, great cadence of shots, good speed, boom...3 mikes, 1 bravo, the rest alphas. But the 3 mikes made me go negative for that classifier and totally screwed me up. I think in time, as a new shooter, I'll grow more calm and be able to actually process things through the stages, hopefully. This last match, after the classifier, a GM was ROing the stages, and was reminding me as I went through the stage to relax, slow down, etc. It really helped a ton. Just remembering to relax, slow down a bit and make good, quality A hits through out the match.

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Did a recent classifier that I shot 50% of the high hit factor. I shot 91% of the max points. I would have to shoot 0.12 sec faster for each shot to make shooting C’s equivalent to hitting A’s.

Since my splits in practice are normally around 0.19 to .23 sec (all A’s), it’s almost impossible for me to shoot splits fast enough to make a C worthwhile…for that particular classifier.

The time savings are in the transitions, where I might take too long to shoot an A.

In my analysis, the higher the hit factor (shorter stages, less movement, shorter transitions), fast splits become more important; a fast C becomes more advantageous. Transitions and splits are closer to each other.

The lower the hit factor (longer stages, more movement, longer transitions), fast splits become less important because so much time is spent in transitions.

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As a newbie, I can say this; Missing and hitting no-shoots sucks! So I shoot for A's. However one round I hit all A's but so slowly I was basically at the bottom of the score list. Hmm...

Something to think about too, if you are shooting A's at a moderate pace (ie; as fast as you can get A's without pushing too hard) then as you get better, you will shoot faster. If you just shoot fast, will your fast C's eventually turn into fast A's? (Maybe, I don't know).

What about steel plates and those spinning thingies? If you miss, you miss not matter how fast you miss. Unlike paper where a missed A is a C, a missed steel target is an entire miss, costing you another shot, maybe forcing you to reload sooner. On a spinning thingy, that miss might make it worse as the spinning thing picks up speed! (Polish Plate Rack, I'm looking at you!) So a missed plate might cause you more trouble than if you had taken an accurate, but slower shot.

So MY strategy is to TRY and shoot A's as best/fast as I can, and try and get the reloads faster and actually running to the next shooting station. As I was learning the game, I just walked to the next station because I was trying to reload and not get DQ's.

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I think you guys are missing the main point here. The ultimate goal or strategy for any stage run is to capture 100% of the stage points. You will vary rarely see a top level shooter purposefully choose to NOT aim for A zone hits. In the top level of this game all of the top shooters are able to shoot the stages in pretty much the same stage time. What separates them is how many points they are down. So don't fool yourself into thinking that ANY amount of points down is acceptable.

The higher skilled shooters are able to shoot A's "faster" because their mechanics, recoil management, and shot calling skills allow them to break the shot as SOON as possible. I hate using the word "Fast" when referencing the actual shooting process. I instead like to use a comment like "I strive to shoot as soon as I can call my shots effectively". When I am shooting a stage I could care less of how long I spend on engaging a specific target. I know that if I am processing the sight picture as soon as I can see it the shooting will happen as "fast" as it can. If I want the proper sight picture to present its self sooner then I need to practice on improving and optimizing my mechanics, recoil management, and shot calling skills.

The main problem most B class and lower shooters have when they try to shoot fast is that they are shooting at "Brown" instead of picking a specific place on the target to aim at. If you are calling your shots on "Brown" who knows what quality of hits you will have. You are simply hoping that your shots hit the target anywhere. Doing this sacrifices a ton of points. When you optimize your mechanics, recoil management and shot calling skills it takes ZERO extra time to aim at a specific location on a target and break two called shots in the A zone. Verses pointing your gun at "Brown" and slapping the trigger twice trying to go fast and hoping that your hits will be there.

Good post. You said somewhere else to "think of doing things SOONER not FASTER" and I recall that line to myself a lot. It's a better way to think imo.

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Steve Anderson put it well to me during a recent session: "See what you need to see to shoot the A." It is simple yet deep and it has transformed my practice and match performance. Learning to call your shots is the only reliable way to gain speed and not sacrifice. You will still shoot C's (unintentionally) but it means that you just thought you saw and called the A or you really didn't see it at all. "Visual patience" is another term to describe it. Be honest in your dry fire practice and patient in your match shooting. It will pay off. Speed will come naturally but focusing on speed and the tradeoffs of speed will never force you to develop the visual skills needed. I had the pleasure of shooting with Angus Hobdell at the Florida Open this year and he said to me: "Get your movement done quickly, then get your shooting done, then get your movement done quickly...." His comment was a great reminder to get out of the mental trap of just doing everything fast. The shooting can only be as fast as you can see what you need to see.

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