Skydiver Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Is this a legal start position as per 8.2.2? To me it isn't, and I won't start the shooter. I know that people have discussed the "IPSC monkey" before, but at least there, the arms are still at the shooters sides. This seems to be obviously not arms not naturally by sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Looks normal to me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shuey134 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Seems like more of a judgement call. But,I guess as long as the RO is consitent with everyone that passes through his stage, then it really doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 When I stand up straight and let my arms relax and hang naturally they look just like the picture. Try it yourself. My arms don't hang naturally off to each side of my body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Looks like anyone else with arms at ones side while wearing holster,gun,belt and mags. So yea I would say its normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 this is all on the RO's perspective. I won't start you if your elbows are bent and your hands are barely touching your equipment. I do have fun with those that start creeping, and creeping and then the look comes: "when are you going to start the timer." " when you quit moving" I usually reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 At a club match with embedded ROs it is tough, Maybe we need to take a couple photos and print them up prior to the match and that will be the position that you start in? I am thinking about doing this. I don't like that when Surrender or wrist above shoulder starts are specified, the shooter is twisted, bent and crouching as if ready to spring. If You were told put up your hands or you were trying desperately to convey to someone a position of subservience you would stand as erect as you could with your hands up. If You were the person demanding the other to assume such a position of subservience, you would NOT allow that person to assume a crouched ready to spring position would you? Stand up STRAIGHT, let your arms hang loose (This is actually probably faster than tensing up!). Or Stand up straight, put your hands up above the respective shoulder. Now if the WSB elaborates, then we are all free to push the limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 That is my normal stance. Arms naturally at sides places my hands in front. I consciously have to straighten my arms to get my fingers to touch the seams of my pants-kind of like Attention in the military. There should be nothing wrong with bent arms as long as it is natural. I suspect most people who spent a lifetime of lifting weights would probably see that as a natural stance. Shootingchef Do you mean if my thumb touches the bottom of my holster, you would not start me? I can see not starting me if my hand or fingers are on a mag, but I have seen a lot of shooters index their strong hand by having their thumbs touching the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Is this a legal start position as per 8.2.2? To me it isn't, and I won't start the shooter. Seems fine to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 While I have no problem with the position shown in the photo ... This is reasonably natural to my eye ... 8.2.2 states ". 'Arms hanging naturally by sides' is illustrated in Appendix E3." When in doubt, refer to that diagram! What IS NOT natural is someone knees bent, hunched over, and gun hand inched up "western-movie-gun-fight-style." Those are the ones you should not give a start command to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I agree, the guy in the pic looks legal. Not how I would start, but legal. Max Michel preaches the Bruce Lee philosophy of loose and without tension until right before impact. At one match they had a photographer with a high speed camera taking pics of Max running a stage. I was clicking through pretty fast to get to the beep photo and I actually thought, by his body language, that someone might be down range setting steel or whatever. He was that relaxed. The next photo showed him mid draw. He is lightening quick. Stay loose, it allows you to move faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I don't mind you blacking out my face... But the Pig, come on that's just mean. here is the stage http://youtu.be/zd2_a6ytBuo Edited March 19, 2012 by Supermoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heckler Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't mind you blacking out my face... But the Pig, come on that's just mean. here is the stage http://youtu.be/zd2_a6ytBuo The pig must belong to some black OPS group and cannot show his face in pictures Looked like you laid down a nice run on that stage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Just heard a story of some religious guru in a far off land...who has held their arm above their head for over 12yrs. (reaching out to God?) Hands naturally at surrender ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03k64 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't mind you blacking out my face... But the Pig, come on that's just mean. here is the stage http://youtu.be/zd2_a6ytBuo I thought that was just how you looked and that it was a really bad shirt design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I don't mind you blacking out my face... But the Pig, come on that's just mean. here is the stage http://youtu.be/zd2_a6ytBuo He! He! He! Since you self identified, sorry about the pig. I had a thread closed and deleted when there were too many distinguishing marks. :-) I hope that you know this wasn't targetted at you. I was trying to find an illustrative picture. I just started this thread because I noticed a couple of shooters yesterday. Thef were standing at their planned start position, but I was still going around the stage to make sure it was clear. While waiting there, both hands would be hanging at their sides. When I get up to them, hands are still there. But after I say "Make Ready" and they've loaded their gun and holstered, the hands shift as shown in the picture. :-) Yes, and I started them anyway. :-) Edited March 19, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I don't feel that those start positions are "natural".... that being said lots do it. I was at a classifier match last week and on El Pres I saw a guy all twisted at the start. Kind of annoying but whatever- if you can't beat them join them I guess.... EDIT: That pic of Mike isn't bad and I'd have no issue with that.... like I said I've seen much worse. Edited March 19, 2012 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 That is my normal stance. Arms naturally at sides places my hands in front. I consciously have to straighten my arms to get my fingers to touch the seams of my pants-kind of like Attention in the military. There should be nothing wrong with bent arms as long as it is natural. I suspect most people who spent a lifetime of lifting weights would probably see that as a natural stance. Shootingchef Do you mean if my thumb touches the bottom of my holster, you would not start me? I can see not starting me if my hand or fingers are on a mag, but I have seen a lot of shooters index their strong hand by having their thumbs touching the holster. my thumb touches the barrel of my gun, my weak hand is truly relaxed at my side. It's hard to describe, but cup your weak hand as if your going to grab something, cock your elbow, bringing your hand up to waist high and that is what I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't feel that those start positions are "natural".... that being said lots do it. I was at a classifier match last week and on El Pres I saw a guy all twisted at the start. Kind of annoying but whatever- if you can't beat them join them I guess.... EDIT: That pic of Mike isn't bad and I'd have no issue with that.... like I said I've seen much worse. Illegal start position for El Prez ... See the glossary definition of "Facing Uprange." The RO should NOT have started him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I was going to say the same thing, until I double-checked the start position for El Prez Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A, both wrists above respective shoulders. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 I was going to say the same thing, until I double-checked the start position for El Prez Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A, both wrists above respective shoulders. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. Yeah, it's "El Strong & Weak Pres" that stipulates "facing uprange". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Thanks for participating on this thread. It was fun to see people's responses. I've learned out that "arms naturally by sides" means that the arm/hand positions need not be symmetrical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 That is my normal stance. Arms naturally at sides places my hands in front. I consciously have to straighten my arms to get my fingers to touch the seams of my pants-kind of like Attention in the military. There should be nothing wrong with bent arms as long as it is natural. I suspect most people who spent a lifetime of lifting weights would probably see that as a natural stance. Shootingchef Do you mean if my thumb touches the bottom of my holster, you would not start me? I can see not starting me if my hand or fingers are on a mag, but I have seen a lot of shooters index their strong hand by having their thumbs touching the holster. my thumb touches the barrel of my gun, my weak hand is truly relaxed at my side. It's hard to describe, but cup your weak hand as if your going to grab something, cock your elbow, bringing your hand up to waist high and that is what I am talking about. If your thumb touches the barrel of your your gun, doesn't this rule apply: 8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms). If the argument is that is your natural start position, can't somebody else argue that their natural start position is with their hand around the grip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I was going to say the same thing, until I double-checked the start position for El Prez Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A, both wrists above respective shoulders. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. "back to targets" negates twisting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 "back to targets" negates twisting Of the body, probably. Not the head. The chick from Exorcist would have a huge advantage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now