rkgsmith Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Looking at the results from the 3 Gun Nat's. it appears as though limited is taking a backseat to "Tactical ". I'm just curious how many people would be in favor of one or the other. I prefer limited, but understand that some shooters need some type of optic for long shots. Maybe I'm old school, but if you want to shoot limited it should be with all your guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Keep them both. Hasn't hurt other 3-Gun events and I think it allows for more shooters. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 The people have spoken. Tactical is here to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Adding Tactical Division to 3-Gun is one of the very few POSITIVE rules changes in USPSA recently. Keep Tactical and Limited. They are both needed and wanted, especially at the club level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I think you need to keep all of them. While limited may have the smallest representation, I still think whoever wins limited 3-gun is the best all-around shooter. No fancy scopes or electronic dots on the rifle. No shotgun speed loaders, no porting in the barrels. Just iron sights and plenty of practice. Congratulations Benny. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Bear1142: Would that make the second place limited shooter second? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I think Tactical Division needs to be finished, ie; all three firearms need to be Tactical. The rifle is perfect; one optic allowed. The pistol should be a production/carry type in a carry holster, caliber of your choice, major/minor rules apply. Shotgun should be the same; production type that a cop would carry in a squad car, I'm not going to get into the pump vs auto loader or number of rounds it should hold... This would make it a clearly defined separate Division, instead of a sub-division of Limited like RM3G and SMM3G handle it. And also, USPSA needs to adopt the Heavy Metal/He Man Divison. More shooters with different equipment, more reconition, etc... JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Thankfully, USPSA is a representative democracy, and not a democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 I like JJ's idea. Tactical Rifle: "Limited" rifle with no more than one optic Pistol: "Production" pistol with a production-legal holster/mag pouch setup Shotgun: "Limited" shotgun IMO, shotgun is the hard one to break out of Limited. I'm all for recognizing Production (although Limited-10 needs to go back to the politically correct hell that spawned it, come 14 September 2004) pistol, and like the "tactical rifle" concept, but shotgun...well, a 8-shooter isn't that hard to come by, and I can't think of anything offhand to change. Maybe require a 3-point sling and a integral flashlight Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Or maybe just leave it just like it is. Its working. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsrdx Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 Leave it alone - USPSA finally recognizes that a majority of 3 Gun shooters want to use their limited guns with a scoped rifle - not because they're blind, not because they can't shoot, but just because that's the way they prefer it - and we're debating its utility? Limited and Open have their place, but neither represent the configuration of the majority of operators - of the actual or armchair variety - firearms. Everybody that shoots Kyle Lamb's North American 3 Gun is shooting the equivalent of USPSA Tactical, and it's usually the largest division at SMM3G, (former) SOF and JPRM3G. It needs to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 4, 2004 Share Posted July 4, 2004 By production pistol are we sayihg that a 1911 single stack in .45 ACP, no magweel, no fiber optics, no tungsten rods is not "Tactical"? My idea is: Limited, It is what it is and has been. Open, the same, pretty much anything goes, it is the test bed for the future. Tactical, a limited Shotgun and any Non-Open handgun, be it Production, Limited, Limited-10 or even (Gasp) a revolver. Now if you all want a forth division go for the Ironman. Rifle: .309 minimum, in fact specify the calibers, .308 or 30-06 and maybe some of the 8mm group for the rifle, 20 round max mags. Pistol: .45 single stack, metal gun, sorry no tupperware., no magwell, no extended mags, if it sticks out you can't use it. No fiber optics, night sights are ok. Shotgun, 12 ga Pump, 8+1 max 21" barrel. All guns slung, must carry long gun on pistol stage and pistol on longgun stage. All shooters to wear a pack, pack will be loaded at the stage with 25 pounds of soft weight. You will wear it while shooting the course. You may use a cart between stages and to carry your ammo. You can even bring a chair. THe idea isn't to see who can carry everything all day, but rather to see who can shoot and scoot while carrying a reasonable load. All this having been said, I have to say I agree with xsrdx, USPSA finally gave us this. Leave it alone and lets see where it goes. We can revist it later. for now, we can shoot most all the matches we want to with having to buy new gear for each match. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMinzghor Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I'm for keeping all of them, but course designers have to keep in mind that some of us still do use iron sights and make the stages reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 like NMinzghor said, remember the iron sight people. If you build a COF with a 300 yard shot to challenge scoped rifles you have nearly eliminated the iron sight user. FWIW dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Iron sights at 300 plus yards on a full size USPSA target should present no problem to anyone that considers himself a rilfeman. If you can hit from a rested position a 1" group at 100 yards, you should be able to hit this. Now, i will agree that there are those amongst us that can no longer see that far well enough to pick out a brown target from a dirt colored backstop. I would suggest that the use of flas targets be encourages and that in light of the forgoing, that two large bright 12 x 12 banners be posted at teh target, one on each side. We are not trying to test the target aquisition ability here, rather the shooting ability. Either that or you have to paint the targets a bright color and re-paint every couple shooters. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Aha, suddenly we know where to post the sponsor banners... behind the long range rifle steel targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMinzghor Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 problem is the 300 yd targets have been 8" steel not paper targets at the matches I have shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 I would love to see a full tactical division but would like to add that there should be no mag-cap restriction other than mags have to be OEM or equivalent. Got pre-ban 15/17 rounders? Fill 'em up. Got a legal G18 mag and are willing to shlep it around? Be my guest. Currently, anyone who wants to use duty/carry equipment is forced to decide between two equally unattractive options. Option 1 is to shoot production where 15+ round magazines only hold 10 and a 190 power factor scores the same as a 125. Option 2 is to compete against guys with electronic sights, or full on race guns. Limited and open are there for guys who want a shooting game. Production is there for shooters who, for one reason or another, can't get standard capacity magazines and certain calibers. Tactical can be what production should have been. The place where guys can use equipment suitable for defensive/tactical use without the artificial penalties imposed by production. I'm not talking about drop leg holsters or drawing from concealment. I mean open carry rigs with retention type holsters and magazine carriers. It would give guys who are looking to hone their 'practical' skills a place to compete against other 'practical' shooters. It would put the P back in IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Erik, I agree, an 8" plate is a bit small, how about 12"? or fullsize poppers? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Tactical division did not just happen, there are a lot of folks out here who pushed & lobbied hard until the BOD gave us just what we asked for, and it seems a lot of people agree with us. If you really want a production 3 gun division, start the process, its not a easy deal but it can be done. But in the mean while leave tactical alone, we worked for it, lots of people seem to like it and it works. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Kurt, As much as it pains me, Yes, I do consider you the 2nd best. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsrdx Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Tactical can be what production should have been. The place where guys can use equipment suitable for defensive/tactical use without the artificial penalties imposed by production. As a "practical" matter, you've described the tactical division - decent 3G stage design will make speed holsters and porcupine mag holders a risky choice, leading to adoption of fast but secure, IDPAesque holsters and mag carriers. The end result is, tactical will wind up looking a lot like what you'd use for the purpose you describe. A typical SRT or SOF operator can be competitive with duty gear at SMM3G (Tactical-Scope) or Kyle Lamb's North American Tactical - in divisions more or less equivalent to USPSA Tactical. I wasn't there, but I'm guessing more than one of the top 10 USPSA Tactical division finishers was using a holster/mag carriers that would be IDPA legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVC247 Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 I think tactical was a very smart move. Personally, I build my guns for the real world and shoot them at matches. That means my AR has both emergency back-up iron sights and a dot, because a dot is just so much faster (as the military has now realized). That's my 'everything that can go wrong has gone wrong' home defense weapon, and now I can shoot it at a match without being thrown into Open. Now my only problem is that my major caliber hi-cap 1911 carry gun that I shoot in IPSC, which is 100% reliable, the one I carry every day and trust my life with in beautiful Detroit, is not legal to use in IDPA because it has a bull barrel?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVC247 Posted July 9, 2004 Share Posted July 9, 2004 I guess what I'm trying to say in my meandering way is that the P in IPSC and USPSA stands for practical, and there ain't nuthin more practical than an M4 with an Aimpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 10, 2004 Share Posted July 10, 2004 An M1A full of 168 grain T.A.P. ammo comes to mind as more practical , but I digress. The results speak for themselves! There were only 32 iron sight shooters at the USPSA 3-GUN "LOCALS" and something like 91 "tactical" shooters, even more than open! I say it is about time that USPSA got a clue! It has been the biggest class in ALL the other 3-gun matches. I would say leave it alone, all the classes are just right. Now we just have to figure out a way to score it right! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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