Optics for total beginners?

[ummm]

I'm guessing everyone reading this post probably had some (or a ton) of firearm experience from childhood, and so there's probably a lot of love for iron sights, but I don't have that (or any) history. I never pulled a trigger in my life until about six weeks ago. Shooting sports are insanely fun! No wonder you guys keep it such a secret.

Anyways, I saw a person using what I now understand to be a red-dot sight. Wow! Seems to me like an infinitely better idea than iron sights for shooting sports. So I'm thinking about switching over to a red dot sight instead of my iron sights. Since I don't have a long history of iron-sight-based habits, I imagine the switch will be baggage-free.

My question for the experts out there is: From a purely shooting-sports perspective, should I switch? Are there some important lessons / fundamentals / habits that using iron sights will imbue into my brain, and therefore I should use iron sights for some number of years before switching?

Thanks for your time!

[Skydiver]

Iron sights taught me the importance of follow through because I could either see the front sight move in the notch, or the notch shift around the front sight with incorrect technique.

Depending on the field of view you have with your red dot, it may or may not be obvious if you are shifting the gun as you are squeezing the trigger. On the other hand, as long as you can keep the dot on the same exact point on the target as you are squeezing, it may not matter if you are shifting the gun since the bullet should go to your point of aim.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I saw a red-dot sight. Wow! Seems like better idea than iron sights for shooting sports. So I'm thinking about switching over to a red dot sight instead of my iron sights. I imagine the switch will be baggage-free.

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

If you carry a handgun everyday, learning to shoot iron sights

is a Great Idea. Using a red dot may interfere with that learning

curve.

Also, red dot is not "baggage free" - two problems:

1. lots of us (me included) have a heck of a time learning

to acquire the dot - bring the gun up, and there's no dot:(

You take a few seconds to "find the dot" and you're already

a few seconds behind your competition:(

2. using a red dot in competition bumps you up into OPEN - that

means you're competing with $3,000 guns and people who really

shoot super fast and super accurate.

A dot on your gun is best if you have a compensator on the gun as well.

So, using a dot can get expensive, quickly.

But, it is an awful lot of fun:) I've been shooting OPEN for four years

now, and LOVE it.

Good luck,

Jack

[speedrrracer]

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

If you carry a handgun everyday, learning to shoot iron sights

is a Great Idea. Using a red dot may interfere with that learning

curve.

Thanks for your reply. Like I said, it's purely from a shooting-sports perspective.

Also, red dot is not "baggage free" - two problems:

1. lots of us (me included) have a heck of a time learning

to acquire the dot - bring the gun up, and there's no dot:(

You take a few seconds to "find the dot" and you're already

a few seconds behind your competition:(

This is an interesting point. I've been noticing what a hassle it is to bring the sights into alignment (tops level) and then hold that steady while making sure I have even spacing on each side of the front sight. This is taking me extra time, which will put me that much time behind my competition (once I start competing...I'm nowhere near ready). Finding a dot seems like far less work, and far more natural.

Obviously you have way more experience -- if you can remember back to all the years you spent learning iron sights, and compare that with the time you've spent learning your optic, how would you compare the investment in time? Is learning an optic harder or easier?

2. using a red dot in competition bumps you up into OPEN - that

means you're competing with $3,000 guns and people who really

shoot super fast and super accurate.

That's a good point, but I'm going to be the bottom of the food chain in any division. Plus, I was looking at some IDPA highlights, and there's some guy winning the production division (the most stock guns, I guess?) and he's insanely awesome! googling -- Bob Vogel -- this guy is *for certain* a professional. My point here is, if there are pros in the "lowest" division, what difference does it make where I compete, if the money isn't an issue?

A dot on your gun is best if you have a compensator on the gun as well.

Can I ask why is this? I see a compensator seems to be something on the end of your barrel to reduce recoil...so you're saying recoil affects optics more than iron sights?

Is the electronic stuff delicate and gets damaged?

Thanks Jack and Skydiver!

[ziebart]

Its not that the recoil will break the red dot, but a compensator is such an advantage they are only allowed in open. Since everyone else in open has one it makes sense to get one as well. Personally if I could only have one I would take a compensator over a dot. Also if your gun recoils a lot then it may push the dot outside the window that will slow you down since you have to bring it back into view. With the irons you can always see where they are at so you know which way you need to steer the gun. With a red dot outside the viewing window you don't know which way it needs to go.

.

Yes every division has its top competitors. I wouldn't call production a low division. Each has its own challenges. If you think you will have the most fun in open by all means go for it. This is a game have fun. And you don't need to spend 3k to play in open. Look for a used STI for 2.3k or build an open Glock. If you only get the basics you can get it around 1k with mags. No you won't be using the most competitive equipment, but so long as it is reliable it will be more than good enough to get you to B class.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Speed, there's nothing wrong with using a dot.

Actually, it's a lot of fun.

The only two things I mentioned for you to think

about, before you spent the investment in money and

time, are:

1. If you carry a self defense gun, it is more

important, IMHO, for you to take the time and

practice to learn how to use the iron sights,

quickly - it can be done but takes time.

You are indicating, I believe, that you don't

carry a gun for self defense? If so, pls ignore

that one point.

2. You mentioned in your first note, that putting a

red dot on your gun is "baggage free", and I showed

you why that is not true. There are disadvantages

to putting a red dot on your gun.

Yes, it is more difficult, IMHO, to acquire the red

dot than using open sights? My opinion.

As has been noted, without a compensator, it is even

more difficult to acquire the red dot FOR EACH SHOT

as the dot bounces out of view with recoil.

I thought as a newbie, you would appreciate the point of

view which contradicted your previous assumptions, based

on years of experience with both iron and dot sights.

With that said, since you don't carry a gun for self

defense, and money is not an object, and you wish to try

OPEN, I'd suggest you purchase an OPEN gun and learn how

to shoot that - a STI TruBor is a good beginner's choice

(I have two of them).

They are a tremendous amount of fun to shoot.

I presume one of your objectives over the next year (and

I may be wrong) is to invest some time and money into

becoming a better shooter - one who learns how to hit the

target much more quickly than you currently can?? If so,

I'd predict that using either iron or dot sights, that you

will make a lot of progress in the next year, whichever way

you go.

Good luck, I know you'll have a lot of fun competing with

either type of sights in USPSA and steel matches.

Jack

[jar]

You mentioned IDPA. There are currently no divisions in IDPA that allow red dots.

[Graham Smith]

Red dot sights mean Open division. If you start shooting in Open, be aware that you will be shooting against people who generally have a lot of experience. They are also going to be shooting relatively expensive compensated race guns with race holsters, tuned mags, etc. IOW, the competition is pretty intense.

If you're not easily intimidated by that kind of competition and are willing to spend around double the cost of a production setup just to start, then go for it.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Graham Smith

[ummm]

Jack - great info! Many thanks for your thoughtful responses, your input in awesome. Pretty much not allowed to carry here in Kalifornistan, you are correct. You are also correct about the wanting / willing to put in the work to become better. I'm finding the training part to be really fun (Steve Anderson dry-fire book + a frickin' laser in my gun -- what's not to love? ) One small correction, I don't "want" to try Open; I just don't care which division I end up in, and I don't see any reason to prefer one division over another, given that it's just for fun, and I'm going to get my arse kicked for years to come while I learn basics like trigger control, grip, stance, etc. Please, however, let me know if there are reasons to prefer one division that are not yet evident.

jar -- good to know. I'm not sure if I'll want two different guns, so maybe that will be a sticking point for me. Unless I can get one gun with two "tops" -- slides, maybe? One with an optic and one with iron sights for IDPA? Maybe there are other solutions, but thanks for that info. I'll have to noodle / google that one over for a while. I'm not married to any organization; I only figured I'd do them both since it would mean more fun...

Graham -- yeah, definitely not intimidated by pros in any division I just want to have fun and learn with the most effective equipment. Thanks to Jack, yourself and others, it seems that optics aren't the slam-dunk most effective way to start, but they may still be the best way to go, given certain caveats.

[Chris iliff]

I started in Open about 8 yrs ago. As with everything there is a learning curve. Is the dot hard to find? Not for the guys who shoot one a lot = practice.

You strike me as a person that has fallen head over heals for our wonderful sport!! That is great!!!

If you are already groovin' to Mr. Anderson, you are way ahead of the curve for new shooters. I'd like to recommend our hosts' (Brian Enos) book. Check it out, basically a must read for any level.

I say shoot what ya got and go have fun. Fun is the key. Most shooters are going to be very helpful at any match you attend. You will quickly learn about the best gear and stuff for each division.

A lot of us regular competing crowd will groove you into one division or another. In the end, that just doesn't matter. What matters is the shooting and friends you'll develope.

After a summer of shooting matches your knowledge base will increase by a factor of 10. You will have a great idea about exactly what you want and what works in what division. That is my advice. Shoot what you have. Go now, don't wait. Get in the game. Jump in with both feet and don't look back!!!

Grab your gun, holster, mag pouches and ammo and go shoot a match. Someone will be there to guide you and help, I promise. Just ask anyone on this forum.

I understand your question about the dot. I think your reasoning is sound. On this forum you are dealing with the absolute best people and shooters in the world. We are going to be giving you advice that might sound off base from your reasoning, but it is solid advice for competing within USPSA or IDPA.

If you have any questions about anything feel free to PM me. Now go shoot a match!!!

[lumpygravy]

It's great to read your thread and get a sense of your new found enthusiasm for the shooting sports.

Whether you pursue USPA or IDPA or any other "brand" of handgun shooting sports, remember that these organizations try their best to welcome new shooters just like you. Both the USPSA and IDPA websites have links to useful first timer information. There are articles on the equipment needed, what to expect on your first day/match, club finders, rulesbooks, etc... which can be very helpful for the new shooter. Also, many clubs run a new shooter program of some form that teach rules, range safety and specifics about the sport. I'd encourage you to find a local club with such a program.

As for optics:

Like other have said, it's a different experience and whether you choose to shoot a gun with one depends on several factors. Also, as another reply mentioned, optics are not allowed in IDPA so you would be shooting a different "brand" but there are several that permit such optics and you should try to find about all of them to see what might be to your liking. This does not exclude you from shooting IDPA, you'll just have to use an iron sighted gun.

Lastly, since you are new, you should know that you would not be competing against a pro like Mr. Vogel even if you shot in the same division - at least not until your proven skill level became on par with his. I shoot USPSA only and though I'm not too familiar with IDPA rules, I believe that they follow a similar structure where all competitors are divided by division (equipment based criteria), and then they compete against each other within their classification (measured shooting ability). In a nutshell, you compete using similar equipment against others of similar ability.

The shooting sports world is a pretty big one. Get out there and find your place in it!

If you're in Northern California, check out the Richmond Hot Shots