3 gun rifle sight system

[oddjob]

How many run the scope with the dot sight together (off to the side like a Gram mount)?? And how do you like it??  I currently run just a scope and am thinking of switching/adding a dot sight.  Is the dot faster than just the scope??? Thanks

[jkmccoy]

Oh Yeah, the dot is way faster than the scope. The scope is a lot better for long targets, but is nowhere near as fast for close-up hose-'em targets.

I shoot a heavily modified Mini14 (I hate AR's) with a scope on top and an Optima on a custom built handguard.

It's amazing how many of the guys I shoot with have recently gone to a dot sight off to the side (on whatever sort of mount) and a scope on top. We had one stage in the last match with 6 paper targets at ~15 yds that you had to engage as you ran by and then 12 small steel targets at about 60 yards. One of my friends had recently mounted an Optima on the handguard of his AR (I built a custom mount for him) and after the stage he was repeating "Oh Yeah, I like that Optima..."

[paraman1]

I have been contemplating putting a see-through scope mount on the carry handle of my AR and then mounting a small 1.75-5x scope on it . I can use my iron sights for hosing and the scope for anything a bit longer . My only concern is the scope height will be pretty high . Anyone else already try this ??

[jhgtyre]

paraman1,

I had a see through scope mount on my carry handle and a couple of different optics on top for a little while.  The optics were too high to get a good check weld and the irons seemed too hard to use through the dark tunnel of the see through mount.

-ld

[kellyn]

Mounting a scope on the standard AR carry handle is not the way to go.  The mounts aren't all that good, the scope is far too high off the bore, and you can't really shoot fast with the irons because most of your vision is blocked.  I'd shoot limited with the irons or put together an upper based on a flattop receiver.

When shooting open, I like the scope/dot system.  For me a dot is slightly faster up close, particularly on really close shots.  But don't feel that you need such a setup.  Most of the 3 gun open "super squad" relies on a scope alone.  When I shot open at the 2001 3 gun  nationals, I engaged one target with my dot.  You won't win the 3 gun nationals because you had a dot on your rifle, you'll win because you practiced a lot.

[Bear1142]

Oddjob,

    Although I've been shooting limited rifle for a while, I was fortunate enough to compete in rifle competitions at Quantico Marine base where we used the electronic pop-up targets at ranges up to 500 yards. I discovered that even with the occasional long range shot, I could hit the target with relatively little power on my scope (about 3x). Most of the targets were in the 50-200 yard range and a low power scope worked perfectly. After a lot of experimentation by myself and several others. I settled on the Weaver V3. Its a 1-3x20 variable scope. Its got excellent glass and is relatively light and compact. The real advantage is the ability to turn down to one power, not 1.5 or 1.75. On the 1 power setting the scope acts just like a dot except it has crosshairs. I shoot it with both eyes open like a dot and I don't lose anything to the dot shooters. If I need some magnification, its just a quick spin and I've got all I need for anything out to 300 for paper and 500 for steel.

(Edited by Bear1142 at 10:37 am on Feb. 19, 2003)

[kurtm]

Kelly:

Auch Der Lieber!! We agree again!! Only one scope need apply. With the TA-11s we are pushing the dot shooters here. On the last 3-gun we had one stage was 40 rnds, no shot over 13yards, with a small smattering of no shoots and head shots only. The way it was set up was almost a 180 degree panorama of targets with a downed helocopter in the middle that you had to shoot through and around. The best time on the stage was with a TA-11 4 seconds faster than #2 who also had a TA-11, and #3, 1 second slower than #2, used a Leopold CQB. Doesn't always work this way but none of the open dot shootersw/ 2 scopes and even the Holosight guys came close. PRACTICE as Kelly points out is the answer, not more dots and bots.         KURT

[kellyn]

Kurt and I are NEARLY in agreement.  Although I like the TA11, I still think the lowpowered variable is the way to go.  For Mystery Mountain, I'm going to shoot a holosight as my one tactical scope, since most variables are verboten in tactical scope class.  We'll see how that goes, hopefully I'll at least beat Kurt.   For Kurt's match, I'm definitely going to to with the TA11 since his feverish little brain will design stages with it in mind.  For Kyle's match, I'm going with my Leupold 1.5-5X unless I get a 1-4X beforehand.  

[Protagonist]

A question for some of you experienced rifle competitors from an inexperienced one.  I currently have a TA 11D on my flattop JP and am thinking of switching to the TA 31F with the chevron.  There is a slightly wider field of view, and with the open-based chevron instead of the triangle, I feel I might be able to see the close up targets a little better underneath the chevron when I am having to hold over.  I'm also considering a 1.5 to 5. The 1 to 4 that you mention, Kelly, sounds interesting also.  Is that something currently available to novice shooters such as myself, or is it something in prototype?

[Guest Dick W Holliday]

For 3 gun events under 200 yards all you need is a Trijicon Reflex with the 12.5 triangle....i bought one years ago just because i didn't have one and had planned to use it as part of my pop on and off AR optics selction but once i used it i never took it off.......that giant triangle is fast and deadly on close stuff and very adequate out to 200......D I C K

[PacMan]

If you pick the right optical device, meaning the one that works for you and not because everyone is using it, practice hard with it, then only one optic would be needed on your rifle.  I tried a compact ACOG and sold it a year later because it didn't work for me.  I switched to a CQ/T, and am really comfortable with it after a few months.  The 1x with circle/dot is so fast, I ended up shooting it @ 1x most of the time.  We did some long range steel shoot last weekend, and 3x magnification was more than enough for 10" plates @ 280 plus yards.

[kellyn]

Leupold makes a 1-4X VariX-II.  The 1.5-5X is a VariX-III.  They are commonly available.

[Bill H]

I will add that the field of view is larger with the 1X4.That is one of my choices along with the Leupold CQT.

Bill

[jkmccoy]

I certainly have nowhere near the experience nor expertise of many of the respondents on this thread, however...within my limited budget I do find that the combination of a scope on top and a dot on the handguard works well for me. (The scope is a Weaver K4 that I bought 20+ years ago for ~$30 and the dot is an Optima that I bought recently - I bought it used). I'm not sure I'm willing to invest large sums of money for Trijicon that may or may not fit my needs better. I like having two optics. I like not having to change power on a variable scope. Is it the best? I don't know. It works for me. I am practicing with that combination.

Kurt, You coming down for the Texas State 3-Gun? Kelly N., Benny, and the Hawkins have sent in their entries. It will be a fun match.

Cheers,

(Edited by jkmccoy at 1:00 am on Feb. 21, 2003)

[kurtm]

JKMcCOY:

I am sure going to try! How far a drive from Denver is it? Are you going to have a tacticl class or does it run along USPSA lines? Both my brother and I are triing to get the time and I know if the regular gang is there it will be great!!!                          KURT

[jkmccoy]

Kurt,

It will be a USPSA match (rules and all) so no tactical class.

It's a pretty good haul from Denver. I have a sister-in-law in Colorado Springs and she claims to have made the drive in 12 hours (I'm not certain that all traffic laws were consistently obeyed). My wife and daughter drove from here to Colorado Springs and said it's more like 14-15 hours (but I'm sure that included frequent stops for coffee, etc.).

Cheers,

[Les Snyder]

disclaimer.... 55 years old, overweight, bi focals....first trip to Kyle's match was two years ago, armed with 4x32 ACOG.... too slow on the house clearing.. I ended up shooting Brad Pitt when in fact I should have been shooting Antonio Bandaras...actually serious case of anal-cranial inversion rather than any sighting problems...all of Kyle's team had the neat EOTech sights... so last year went with HoloSight... worked great even for the 150y weak hand shots...but my vision could use a little help on the 8inch plates at that distance.... so sold a couple of things in the gun safe and picked up the 1.5 x 16 compact ACOG TA44 with triangle... perfect for what we shoot down her... fast up close and slight magnification did not hurt target acquisition but the added magnification helps old eyes... but expensive... I've been playing with it for a while, and will give it a  try at Oxford this year... regards

[rhino]

I've had a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4x20mm on my Colt for . . . several years. The message above that mentioned that you can turn it down to 1X and get the same speed as a dot is right on the money. And even out to 100 yard or so, unless you have a tiny target, the 1X is plenty since the crosshairs are fine (make sure you get the regular duplex reticle and not the heavy duplex which is for shotguns).

I have friends and relatives who have won multiple 3-gun nationals (USPSA) class titles and years ago they were on the forefront of the higher powered variable scope + dot thing. It didn't take them long find the utility of a low power variable and the weight savings is significant. As long as you can crank down to 1 or even 1.5, you're not giving much (if anything) up to a red dot on close targets.

[rhino]

Okay . . .

Here's a dilemma for you cats.

I finally received the GG&G A2 flip-up rear sight I ordered from impactguns.com. I originally wanted it to slap on my Colt which currently has the Leupold Vari-X II 1-4x20mm. I wanted it for "emergencies," especially if the rifle is ever pressed into more serious service.

But . . . I'm hoping to get a Bushmaster super lightweight carbine for my new car gun. Methinks it would go nicely on that, obviously behind a red dot of some description mounted as far forward as possible.

Which sounds better? Should I go ahead and implement my original plan and then just get a "fixed" detachable rear sight for the new Bushy if I ever get it?

[ToddS]

Rhino Boy,

I run a flip up GGG with a permanant front sight on either side of a Holosight for a LE work gun, but I really would'nt waste the money on back up sights on a rifle with a dedicated variable scope.

Even with quick release mounts, It would cost alot of time removing a scope and activating iron sights in a match, or in more pressing times.

With the holosight setup, I can flip up the rear sight faster than I can turn on the Holosight, and if there is like, NO TIME available, use the window of the Holo as a big rear aperature for the front post. It's suprisingly accurate for close stages and the like.

[rhino]

You're right about all of that!

I'm one of those nuts whose gear is first for potential defensive use, but also used for fun stuff like 3-Gun matches. And thinking about what you said, time is even more important in a tense social situation than it is in a match!

Given that, I remain a "belt and suspenders" type. My original plan was to sight-in with the GG&G, then just leave it there and remount the Leupold. It's more of a rainy day insurance thing than something I think I could deploy quickly under stress. It may never get used again, but I'll feel better knowing it's there!

For my rifle with a red dot, I prefer to have iron sights co-witness with the dot. If/when I ever get the super lightweight Bushy to replace my AK shorty, I'll probably go with one of the "non-flippable" detachable rear sights like the DPMS or the new Bushmaster dealio. Right now my red dot is hanging from a gooseneck mount on a carry handle, but the mount obscures too much of the channel in the carry handle to really see the front sight with the dot.

[John Thompson]

I don't get to shoot much three gun and the tactical class even less so if I were to get the best cost effective all around optic what would it be?

[rhino]

I don't get to shoot much three gun and the tactical class even less so if I were to get the best cost effective all around optic what would it be?

My opinion is a low-power variable scope like a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4x20mm or a Vari-X III 1.5-5X or a Pentax 1.5-5X.

[kellyn]

Those are excellent choices but they are not legal in two of the four "tactically oriented" 3 gun matches. Good for the the Millerathon (Rocky Mtn 3 Gun) and the Kyleathon (North Amercian Tactical and its spawn) but currently verboten in WC3Gun and MM3G. So you need to consider what matches you want to prepare for. If you're not going to WC3gun or MM3G, don't worry about it.

If you really want one set up for both 3 gun and defensive-type stuff, I'd go with a Holosight w/ flipup GGG sights a la Todd Salmon and Bennie Cooley (I think Bennie uses that setup on his duty gun). I don't think I'd want any magnification whatsoever on a real duty rifle as most realistic scenarios will take place inside of 25 yards and the Holo will be better than any optic at that kind of distance. Plus you can see the Holo in the dark, fast. But you'll struggle on the farther shots. I've heard lots of talk about how shooters can use their duty ARs (usually a 16incher w/ a dot or the satanic ACOG Reflex) to mow down 100, 200 and 300 yards targets but I have yet to see it. I'm sure Todd, Bennie, BruceP could do so but they don't seem to compete with their duty guns. Most shooters really have a hard time using a dot on shots of any difficulty past 50.

If you're less worried about D-Day and more worried about matches, get the low-powered variable because you NEED to get your hits on target at 100+ yards but I would not really want to check on things that go bump in the night with a variable even at 1.5X.

I personally do not like the cowitness set up although many do. FOR ME, it's asking my eyes to do too much. With a dot, you're supposed to look at the target and fire when the dot is superimposed. Your focus remains on the target. With irons, you need to focus on the front sight. Plus I hate looking at all that stuff: dots, rear sights, front sights, front sight posts, and oh yeah the target.

Of course you could just shoot irons .......

[kurtm]

Kelly:

Satanic ACOG Reflex??? Is that because it aint got no batteries or switches?? and it glows brighter when its bright and dimmer when dim.......how do it know???? KURT