Squib?

[glefos]

On the last target of a CoF a shooter has a squib and stops himself. The gun was pointing at the final target and the trigger was pulled. Bullet was indeed lodged in the barrel. No bullet holes on the target.

Is the final target scored:

1. 2 Mike?

or

2. 2 Mike, 1 FTE?

Please cite the rules you feel apply.

[Skydiver]

1 FTE, 2 Mike because:

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target, plus the applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of Rules 9.2.4.4 or 9.9.2 apply.

and

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

Presumably "to shoot at" in 10.2.7 involves a shot actually happening. From the Glossary in Appendix A3:

Shot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Skydiver

[GrumpyOne]

2 mikes, no FTE..... Just because the bullet never reached the target, doesn't mean he didn't engage it. There is a very long, drawn out thread here on the forum about nearly the same thing. This is a bit different than the other thread, in that the shooter was aiming directly at the target and had a squib, while in the other thread, the shooter fired through a wall at the target.

[Schutzenmeister]

2 mikes, no FTE..... Just because the bullet never reached the target, doesn't mean he didn't engage it. There is a very long, drawn out thread here on the forum about nearly the same thing. This is a bit different than the other thread, in that the shooter was aiming directly at the target and had a squib, while in the other thread, the shooter fired through a wall at the target.

Sorry Grumpy ... For a shot to have officially occured, as quoted above, a bullet must exit the barrel. As no bullet left the barrel, as in this case, no shot (by definition) was fired. Hence, the target was not "shot" at. Therefore, 2 M, 1 FTE. In this respect, it's absolutely no different than pulling the trigger on an empty chamber and trying to claim you "shot" at the target.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Schutzenmeister

[GrumpyOne]

Then explain how you won't get an FTE when you shoot at a target behind a wall, through the wall. Yes, the bullet left the barrel, but it never made it to the target. Walls are impenetrable. By all intents and purposes, if a shooter puts the barrel of his gun against a wall, and pulls the trigger, then that shot never left the barrel either, as the wall stopped it. Squib? FTE? Semantics, I know..... But its what we deal with...

[Skydiver]

As a FYI for the curious, I think this is the long thread Grumpy was referring to: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=132118

The key point in that thread that shots were fired, as in bullets actually left the barrel.

[Floyd D. Barber]

Reshoot?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Reshoot?

No

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Then explain how you won't get an FTE when you shoot at a target behind a wall, through the wall. Yes, the bullet left the barrel, but it never made it to the target. Walls are impenetrable. By all intents and purposes, if a shooter puts the barrel of his gun against a wall, and pulls the trigger, then that shot never left the barrel either, as the wall stopped it. Squib? FTE? Semantics, I know..... But its what we deal with...

FTE from 9.5.7 and the Glossary definition of a shot "Shot . . A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of

a firearm.

Misses and penalties apply

[remoandiris]

The penalty is 2 mikes and an FTSA, NOT an FTE. FTSA is "Failure to SHOOT AT" vice "Failure to Engage". A competitor can engage a target by pointing at it. A competitor can NOT shoot at the target if a round is not fired. Hence the reason the phrasing of the penalty was changed.

No reshoot UNLESS the RO stopped the competitor AND there was no squib. If there is a squib, there is no reshoot regardless of the RO stopping the competitor or the competitor stops themself.

That is how I would call it. The rules already cited above are what I'd use on the score sheet. If the competitor disagrees, they can look through the rulebook to support their position. Unfortunately they will come up empty.

Edited February 26, 2012 by remoandiris

[Nik Habicht]

Then explain how you won't get an FTE when you shoot at a target behind a wall, through the wall. Yes, the bullet left the barrel, but it never made it to the target. Walls are impenetrable. By all intents and purposes, if a shooter puts the barrel of his gun against a wall, and pulls the trigger, then that shot never left the barrel either, as the wall stopped it. Squib? FTE? Semantics, I know..... But its what we deal with...

Really simple -- think of a target partially hidden by hard cover. Shooters fires on it, but both rounds miss -- due to full diameter hits on the hard cover. Did he engage the target? Yes, because the bullets left the barrel.....

No FTE for misses -- but FTE for squibs that result in no round being fired at a target.....

If the shooter in the above example had a squib on the second shot, then there's be no FTE -- just one or two misses, depending on where the first round landed...

Skydiver cited the relevant rules...

[glefos]

Something else to consider. The RO did not know the squib bullet did not exit the barrel. Was not aware of the squib either.

Evidence "after" unload show clear can be used to issue a FTE or FTSA?

[wide45]

You would need to check the timer to see if it registered the pop of the squib. Time for the stage stops with the last shot.

If an accurate time can not be determined, a reshoot would be required.

[wide45]

Something else to consider. The RO did not know the squib bullet did not exit the barrel. Was not aware of the squib either.

Evidence "after" unload show clear can be used to issue a FTE or FTSA?

Any evidence valid under the rules can be used. No video, etc...

[Skydiver]

If the RO was not aware of a squib, then as far as the RO knows and has witnessed is that a shot was taken at the last target, so no FTE penalty. Scoring the targets will just reveal 2 misses.

If during unload and show clear, the RO suspected there was a squib, the RO still has an opportunity to call "Stop" and the provisions of 5.7.7 are still in play.

Unfortunately, your parameters was that the RO didn't know of or suspect a squib. Additionally, you also said that the shooter stopped himself. If the shooter says nothing, and just unloads and shows clear, and the range is declared clear, then 5.7.7 can't provide any reshoot recourse. Additionally, since the RO thinks that all is normal, as far as the RO is concerned, a shot was taken at the last target.

On the other hand, if the shooter tells the RO that he thinks he had a squib after he stops himself, the situation changes because now there is "suspicion" required by 5.7.7.

[Skydiver]

You would need to check the timer to see if it registered the pop of the squib. Time for the stage stops with the last shot.

If an accurate time can not be determined, a reshoot would be required.

+1.

As some people have written in the past, one of the recommended techniques is to hold the timer such that you can see the timer face in corner of your eye as the shooter is getting up to their last few shots to confirm that the last shot is registered.

[Nik Habicht]

You would need to check the timer to see if it registered the pop of the squib. Time for the stage stops with the last shot.

If an accurate time can not be determined, a reshoot would be required.

+1.

As some people have written in the past, one of the recommended techniques is to hold the timer such that you can see the timer face in corner of your eye as the shooter is getting up to their last few shots to confirm that the last shot is registered.

And the pop for the squib would not be the last shot.....

[COMATZD]

Just my opinion, but I think that the shooter did his part in the "attempt to shoot at" the target - he pulled the trigger and the round went bang. It also seems the RO heard a shot fired since he didn't stop the shooter because of the squib. The fact that the round did not leave the barrel is simply proof that a shot was attempted.

I would give a counter-example for argument to those citing the definition of a "shot": If a shooter fires a squib (that lodges in the barrel) during a reload or remedial action (etc. 10.4.3-10.4.6) and the RO does not see a finger in the trigger (because of viewing angle or whatever) should the shooter be DQ'd? If you argue that a "shot" never occurred in the FTE/FTSA example then you shouldn't expect to call this a DQ offense.

[remoandiris]

Just my opinion, but I think that the shooter did his part in the "attempt to shoot at" the target - he pulled the trigger and the round went bang. It also seems the RO heard a shot fired since he didn't stop the shooter because of the squib. The fact that the round did not leave the barrel is simply proof that a shot was attempted.

I would give a counter-example for argument to those citing the definition of a "shot": If a shooter fires a squib (that lodges in the barrel) during a reload or remedial action (etc. 10.4.3-10.4.6) and the RO does not see a finger in the trigger (because of viewing angle or whatever) should the shooter be DQ'd? If you argue that a "shot" never occurred in the FTE/FTSA example then you shouldn't expect to call this a DQ offense.

The penalty is not "failure to attempt to shoot at", it is "failure to shoot at". You can't shoot at anything unless there is a "shot". The rulebook defines "shot". If you don't like the rulebook, tell NROI. Until the definition is changed, you can't ignore it just because you don't like it.

In your counter, you're assuming the RO didn't hear the bang or pop of the squib. You can cite what if scenarios all day. Near as I can tell from the OP, his scenario happened and he's asking what the penalties should be/should have been.

[Schutzenmeister]

Just my opinion, but I think that the shooter did his part in the "attempt to shoot at" the target - he pulled the trigger and the round went bang. It also seems the RO heard a shot fired since he didn't stop the shooter because of the squib. The fact that the round did not leave the barrel is simply proof that a shot was attempted.

I would give a counter-example for argument to those citing the definition of a "shot": If a shooter fires a squib (that lodges in the barrel) during a reload or remedial action (etc. 10.4.3-10.4.6) and the RO does not see a finger in the trigger (because of viewing angle or whatever) should the shooter be DQ'd? If you argue that a "shot" never occurred in the FTE/FTSA example then you shouldn't expect to call this a DQ offense.

If you're going to play an organized sport - any organized sport - then one needs to learn and play by the rules applicable to that sport ... including the definitions pertenant thereto. A "shot" is defined in our rules. Hence, one CANNOT "shoot at" a target until and unless a bullet actually leaves the barrel.

The firing of a squib during a reload may or may not be evidence of the finger inside the trigger guard during a reload or remedial action. I would argue that no DQ could be issued for an accidental discharge (AD) as in 10.4.3 through 10.4.6 a "shot" must be fired in order for there to have been an AD. HOWEVER ---> The fact that the gun went "pop" (i.e., a squib) MAY be very good grounds for the RO to conclude it was by action of the shooter's finger pulling the trigger. (Yes, this can be considered as "evidence.") Please refer to 10.5.8 and/or 10.5.9. The appropriate call would be Unsafe Gun Handling, an offense which does not require a shot to be fired.

Please remember that a shot need not be fired for a DQ'able offense to have occured.

[COMATZD]

Just my opinion, but I think that the shooter did his part in the "attempt to shoot at" the target - he pulled the trigger and the round went bang. It also seems the RO heard a shot fired since he didn't stop the shooter because of the squib. The fact that the round did not leave the barrel is simply proof that a shot was attempted.

I would give a counter-example for argument to those citing the definition of a "shot": If a shooter fires a squib (that lodges in the barrel) during a reload or remedial action (etc. 10.4.3-10.4.6) and the RO does not see a finger in the trigger (because of viewing angle or whatever) should the shooter be DQ'd? If you argue that a "shot" never occurred in the FTE/FTSA example then you shouldn't expect to call this a DQ offense.

The penalty is not "failure to attempt to shoot at", it is "failure to shoot at". You can't shoot at anything unless there is a "shot". The rulebook defines "shot". If you don't like the rulebook, tell NROI. Until the definition is changed, you can't ignore it just because you don't like it.

In your counter, you're assuming the RO didn't hear the bang or pop of the squib. You can cite what if scenarios all day. Near as I can tell from the OP, his scenario happened and he's asking what the penalties should be/should have been.

I'd say we just found a deficiency in the rules/definitions. I was attempting to show that if a squib is defined as not a "shot" (since a "shot" is clearly defined in the rulebook) then, by extension, another scenario presents itself where if a squib is again defined a not a "shot" it clearly has implications that some may not be comfortable with. I think it is noteworthy that a squib has two definitions, one in the glossary where the bullet is lodged in the barrel and one under 10.4.2.1 where a squib is also a shot.

I would definitely want call a squib fired under the 10.4.3-10.4.6 sections as a "shot" and DQ'able, but under the current definitions I could not.

[Steven Cline]

1 FTE, 2 Mike because:

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target, plus the applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of Rules 9.2.4.4 or 9.9.2 apply.

and

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

Presumably "to shoot at" in 10.2.7 involves a shot actually happening. From the Glossary in Appendix A3:

Shot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .A bullet which passes completely through the barrel of a firearm.

+1

And as clear as day to me. 10.2.7 doesn't say "engage" to incur the penalty, it say shoot at. A shot is a round that leaves the barrel. The squib with a bullet in the barrel is not a shot at the target.

[twodownzero]

This presents another interesting question that I never thought about. If the timer catches the "squib" as the "last shot," the time is wrong and that can't be used as the end time.

What that means is that if the timer won't tell us the time for the last shot, then re-shoot.

And the only way to know if the timer did indeed count the squib as a "shot" is to know how many rounds were fired before the squib and see if the number is correct or is +1.

If the RO isn't sure how many shots were fired before the squib, then the only equitable thing to do is to issue a reshoot for the inability to determine score, as the time is just as important as the number of points on the stage.

Anyone disagree?

[COMATZD]

The firing of a squib during a reload may or may not be evidence of the finger inside the trigger guard during a reload or remedial action. I would argue that no DQ could be issued for an accidental discharge (AD) as in 10.4.3 through 10.4.6 a "shot" must be fired in order for there to have been an AD. HOWEVER ---> The fact that the gun went "pop" (i.e., a squib) MAY be very good grounds for the RO to conclude it was by action of the shooter's finger pulling the trigger. (Yes, this can be considered as "evidence.") Please refer to 10.5.8 and/or 10.5.9. The appropriate call would be Unsafe Gun Handling, an offense which does not require a shot to be fired.

Please remember that a shot need not be fired for a DQ'able offense to have occured.

I didn't type fast enough...

OK, I now agree that a squib that does not leave the gun could not be considered a shot and since the rule says Fail To Shoot At, the penalty would apply.

As a side, I'd still posit that if an RO did not see a finger in the trigger guard during some remedial action and a squib (that does not leave the barrel) is fired a shooter may not be DQ'd based on a specific rule. Accidental Discharge is defined as a "shot", and without seeing the finger the UGH section is arguable. I will also freely admit that the likelihood of such a scenario is extremely low and so it may really be a moot point.

[Steven Cline]

Just my opinion, but I think that the shooter did his part in the "attempt to shoot at" the target - he pulled the trigger and the round went bang. It also seems the RO heard a shot fired since he didn't stop the shooter because of the squib. The fact that the round did not leave the barrel is simply proof that a shot was attempted.

I would give a counter-example for argument to those citing the definition of a "shot": If a shooter fires a squib (that lodges in the barrel) during a reload or remedial action (etc. 10.4.3-10.4.6) and the RO does not see a finger in the trigger (because of viewing angle or whatever) should the shooter be DQ'd? If you argue that a "shot" never occurred in the FTE/FTSA example then you shouldn't expect to call this a DQ offense.

Friend, you can't put an argument in someone's mouth they didn't make and then attempt to use it against them.

The rule is clear. A squib is not a shot if the bullet doesn't leave the barrel.

The question as to whether a shooter should be DQ'd for a squib fired during a reload or remedial action is a wholely seperate discussion and dependent on completely different variables.

If a shooter "fires" the squib and the RO DQ's the shooter for a shot during reload, the shooter has a viable argument that he indeed did not fire a shot if he shows the squib right then. Don't walk away and "discover" it later. If the RO records only a 10.4.3 or 10.4.4 violation then the shooter could win an appeal since a shot has not ocurred. If the RO says I only heard the shot I did not see a finger on the trigger.

If the RO DQs for 10.5.8 or 10.5.9 instead (or also) then the shooter has little argument. I believe the RO should not record the 10.5.8 or 10.5.9 unless he sees the finger inside the trigger guard (as I was trained).

If the shooter declares he did not press on the trigger rules 5.1.6 and 5.5.5 might come into play. A gun that spontaneously attempts to fire a round but the bad ammo is all that saved the shooter from the shot being a shot... well thats a very unsafe and volatile situations. That gun might fire another squib and then a fully charged cartridge and blow up. It might run full auto- the gun is unsafe and the ammo as well. Go get different ammo and a different gun or repair the gun and demonstrate it's safe and you can continue the match.

I know that sounds Range Nazi-ish, but if someone (insults my intelligence by declaring, uh...) declares the gun went bang on it's own, then I have no other logical conclusion to draw.