Why not 357 SIG Major?

[Racer377]

SIG just announced a bunch of new 1911s in 357SIG and it got me thinking a bit about the cartridge again. When I started shooting USPSA, I was running a M&P357, because it was what I had. I ran it in production, because the rules say 357SIG, even if it was well over 165PF, is still minor in LTD/L10. I really liked the cartridge, and was sad to see the M&P357 go in favor of a more proper production 9 for me.

The reason I've heard is that the min. bullet diameter was done to prevent a capacity issue w/ 9major upsetting the Limited apple cart, so to speak. I can see that rationale if rewriting the rule like open, with a no minimum diameter required. But that wouldn't apply to a specific exemption for 357SIG since it'd be the same capacity as 40. There wouldn't be any competitive advantage gained, but it would allow some people/guns to play that otherwise wouldn't. 357Sig is fairly popular as an LEA cartridge, and I'd think letting those guys/gals shoot as major with their duty gear might make the game more inviting to them.

It'd have no real impact on existing competitors and their guns in terms of granting a competitive advantage, but would give shooters a slightly cheaper ammo option if they're willing to a slightly more involved reloading process (which isn't all that bad, especially with the Dillon carbide sizer die). With a craptastic economy and ever rising copper and lead prices, that can't be a bad thing for the sport. If one were to shoot 10k rounds a season, thats over 300 bucks saved on bullet costs (using MG 125 v 165 pricing, it's more if you like 180s), and once fired brass is about the same cost.

It's also nice in that 357SIG brass doesn't get "glocked" even in a Glock, since the 357 Glocks have very good chamber support. (glocked brass is one of my pet peeves with the 40)

I'm told our IPSC friends have allowed it as major as well.

I'm not sure the exact mechanisms or process required, but I can't imagine it would take a lot, logistically speaking. A simple amendment would do, no? Maybe a few minutes for a BOD vote on it?

So why not allow 357SIG as a major cartridge in divisions other than open? Genuine question, I'm curious if there's some other compelling rationale for not allowing it.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Racer377

[MGMorden]

Making .357SIG possible for major with a sane set of rules (ie, not without specifically exempting it by name, which is bad form) is difficult. The only way to do it would be to switch over to declaring minimum by largest case diameter, but that's backwards from how we do things now. Given that most all the cases taper I have no idea what the case diameter for most cartridges are and I'm sure most others are in the same boat. It would be odd to ask everyone to start keeping an eye on that metric merely for the sake of this.

That aside - I don't think .357 SIG is as popular as you think. Its a niche cartridge to say the least. The few people who only have access to it likely won't be turned away by having to shoot Minor PF. Besides - as you noted - the few places where the round is popular is in some LEA type guns - guns that are most appropriately used in Production division, where there's no such thing as major PF and they'll be at no capacity disadvantage.

Edited February 7, 2012 by MGMorden

[Kevin Pledger]

I'm told our IPSC friends have allowed it as major as well.

IPSC Appendix D2 Standard Division.

17. 357SIG is also an approved caliber for Major, subject to achieving the applicable minimum power factor. This concession has been extended until 31 December 2014.

Cheers ....

[Schutzenmeister]

As my friend Kevin pointed out ... Yes, IPSC does allow .357 Sig for Major PF. And, If you notice, the wording of the rule is not all that terribly complex!

My only complaint against the round is that it tends to be very LOUD!

[Kevin Pledger]

As my friend Kevin pointed out ... Yes, IPSC does allow .357 Sig for Major PF. And, If you notice, the wording of the rule is not all that terribly complex!

My only complaint against the round is that it tends to be very LOUD!

Mike,

You are getting OLD ...

Yes definitely agree that round is very loud, worse than the 9x23 I use.

Cheers ....

[Schutzenmeister]

As my friend Kevin pointed out ... Yes, IPSC does allow .357 Sig for Major PF. And, If you notice, the wording of the rule is not all that terribly complex!

My only complaint against the round is that it tends to be very LOUD!

Mike,

You are getting OLD ...

Yes definitely agree that round is very loud, worse than the 9x23 I use.

Cheers ....

At least it's not a 9 x 25 !

[Flexmoney]

As my friend Kevin pointed out ... Yes, IPSC does allow .357 Sig for Major PF. And, If you notice, the wording of the rule is not all that terribly complex!

I wonder if I could roll size my 357SIG brass, to...umm...VERY tight tolerances... Allowing me an extra round in the mags. Hmmmm.

[Skydiver]

As my friend Kevin pointed out ... Yes, IPSC does allow .357 Sig for Major PF. And, If you notice, the wording of the rule is not all that terribly complex!

I wonder if I could roll size my 357SIG brass, to...umm...VERY tight tolerances... Allowing me an extra round in the mags. Hmmmm.

And there was that other thread about barrel sleeve legality... The opinion seemed on that thread that it was legal because it was an internal change for better reliability and function. So if you had 357 SIG, and roll sized it down, to about the size of a 9mm, and had a barrel sleeve to handle the now much narrower cartridge...

Edited February 7, 2012 by Skydiver

[Racer377]

And there was that other thread about barrel sleeve legality... The opinion seemed on that thread that it was legal because it was an internal change for better reliability and function. So if you had 357 SIG, and roll sized it down, to about the size of a 9mm, and had a barrel sleeve to handle the now much narrower cartridge...

If you resized the brass that way, it wouldn't actually be 357 SIG anymore, and thus would be illegal, no?

Have such shenanigans been an issue in IPSC since the rule came about?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Racer377

[Flexmoney]

And there was that other thread about barrel sleeve legality... The opinion seemed on that thread that it was legal because it was an internal change for better reliability and function. So if you had 357 SIG, and roll sized it down, to about the size of a 9mm, and had a barrel sleeve to handle the now much narrower cartridge...

I doubt it would need to be sized down much, at all. Even a little bit... x18 rounds... At the very least, it provides extra room in the mags for general functionality and magazine seating.

[Flexmoney]

BTW, the wording there in the IPSC rule is not great. The word "caliber" is defined in the IPSC glossary (properly, btw) as the diameter of the bullet.

17. 357SIG is also an approved caliber for Major, subject to achieving the applicable minimum power factor. This concession has been extended until 31 December 2014.

IPSC

Glossary

Bullet…………………....... The projectile in a round intended to strike a target.

Caliber……………………. The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch).

Cartridge case…………….. The main body of a round, which contains all component parts

Opps.

[Flexmoney]

If you resized the brass that way, it wouldn't actually be 357 SIG anymore, and thus would be illegal, no?

That is a good point, but see my post on the rule wording (above).

Have such shenanigans been an issue in IPSC since the rule came about?

Ha...always has been.

[Racer377]

17. 357SIG is also an approved caliber cartridge for Major, subject to achieving the applicable minimum power factor. This concession will not apply to any cartridge having a rim diameter less than 10.75mm. This concession has been extended until 31 December 2014.

Would that work?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Racer377

[Kevin Pledger]

BTW, the wording there in the IPSC rule is not great. The word "caliber" is defined in the IPSC glossary (properly, btw) as the diameter of the bullet.

17. 357SIG is also an approved caliber for Major, subject to achieving the applicable minimum power factor. This concession has been extended until 31 December 2014.

IPSC

Glossary

Bullet…………………....... The projectile in a round intended to strike a target.

Caliber……………………. The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch).

Cartridge case…………….. The main body of a round, which contains all component parts

Opps.

Flexmoney,

I only posted the relevant rule, as Racer377, had mentioned that IPSC allow .357SIG, but as you can see its not as yet officially approved and may or may not be approved.

The main reason its there as a concession is to allow those regions where any caliber over 9mm in HG is not approved for civilian use. Which also gives competitors in those regions a avenue to shoot Major in SD.

Whether or not you think the rule is badly written, that is way above my pay grade.

Cheers ....

[The Antichrome]

- I don't think .357 SIG is as popular as you think. Its a niche cartridge to say the least.

+1 to this

[Joe4d]

The reason why not ? because the minimum bullet diameter for Limited major is .40.

If you want to shoot 357 sig major shoot it in open. Instead of why not, you need to prove why''s. There just arnt any. It's a smoke and morrirs round that various goveernment agencies have bought off on the smoke. We are not gonna atract a bunch of new shooters to limited by the rule change. The handful of 357 shooter are still gonna shoot production. There simply isnt any why's. Until a bunch of why's show up that will actually benefit the game there isnt any reason to come up with why nots.

On a side note 357 sig is allowed major in Limited originally because internationally some jurisdictions make it illegal to own a handgun over 38 caliber. I believe the original .357 Sig exception was only allowed for shooters who came from such an area..In that case allowing 357 sig in standard major opened up standard to a bunch of people that otherwise couldnt legally be competitive in standard.

[bikerburgess]

Flex

you dont even need to size it down out of speck, I have a couple of the glock 22rd magazines for my G22 and they hodl 22 rounds of 40 and 23 rounds of 357 sig also my G20 mags with arredondo extensions go from holding 21 to 22 with the sigs. I think it has to do with the way the rounds can stack a little more nose down as they get to the bottom of the magazine.

but I dont think you would see a lot of people rebarrel from 40 to 357 because a 125gr bullet at major has more recoil than a 180 or 200 at the same power factor.

Mike

[Flexmoney]

Flex

you dont even need to size it down out of speck, I have a couple of the glock 22rd magazines for my G22 and they hodl 22 rounds of 40 and 23 rounds of 357 sig also my G20 mags with arredondo extensions go from holding 21 to 22 with the sigs. I think it has to do with the way the rounds can stack a little more nose down as they get to the bottom of the magazine.

but I dont think you would see a lot of people rebarrel from 40 to 357 because a 125gr bullet at major has more recoil than a 180 or 200 at the same power factor.

Mike

Interesting.

I'd likely go for the extra round, over any recoil difference. Also, there are some heavy 9mm bullets that pop up from time to time.(160g +)

[Racer377]

Flex

you dont even need to size it down out of speck, I have a couple of the glock 22rd magazines for my G22 and they hodl 22 rounds of 40 and 23 rounds of 357 sig also my G20 mags with arredondo extensions go from holding 21 to 22 with the sigs. I think it has to do with the way the rounds can stack a little more nose down as they get to the bottom of the magazine.

but I dont think you would see a lot of people rebarrel from 40 to 357 because a 125gr bullet at major has more recoil than a 180 or 200 at the same power factor.

Mike

Hmmm, I didn't realize that. I'm picking up a G31 at some point this week, might have to try that out.

The 147s loaded to 1150 are pretty mild. Not quite as loud either, in my experience.

[Kevin Pledger]

Flex

you dont even need to size it down out of speck, I have a couple of the glock 22rd magazines for my G22 and they hodl 22 rounds of 40 and 23 rounds of 357 sig also my G20 mags with arredondo extensions go from holding 21 to 22 with the sigs. I think it has to do with the way the rounds can stack a little more nose down as they get to the bottom of the magazine.

but I dont think you would see a lot of people rebarrel from 40 to 357 because a 125gr bullet at major has more recoil than a 180 or 200 at the same power factor.

Mike

Most of the guys I know whom are using 357SIG in SD, are using necked down.40S&W. Reason they have lots of .40 brass and 357SIG brass is expensive..

Cheers ....

[Racer377]

Flex

you dont even need to size it down out of speck, I have a couple of the glock 22rd magazines for my G22 and they hodl 22 rounds of 40 and 23 rounds of 357 sig also my G20 mags with arredondo extensions go from holding 21 to 22 with the sigs. I think it has to do with the way the rounds can stack a little more nose down as they get to the bottom of the magazine.

but I dont think you would see a lot of people rebarrel from 40 to 357 because a 125gr bullet at major has more recoil than a 180 or 200 at the same power factor.

Mike

Most of the guys I know whom are using 357SIG in SD, are using necked down.40S&W. Reason they have lots of .40 brass and 357SIG brass is expensive..

Cheers ....

This guy has been my source for 357 Sig brass.

http://store.brassmanbrass.com/servlet/-strse-Pistol-Brass--dsh--Once-Fired/Categories

at $46/1000 shipped, (thank you, all you agencies and departments that bought the smoke and mirrors and provide plenty of cheap once-fired brass!! ) and being able to use 9mm bullets, its a good bit cheaper to reload than just about anything but 9. And no worries about picking up some 9 major brass that probably is due for the scrap bin.

The re-sized 40 ends up being just a hair too short and accuracy seems to suffer.