Am I Shooting Brown?

[Sin-ster]

I am 90% sure this is where my points are going (Production shooter), but I wanted to run my thought process/evidence across some other folks and see what they think.

Evidence:

1) I am "really close" to where I want/need to be in calling my shots-- when the sights jerk, I see it; some of the time, I even notice them indexed on the wrong part of the target (stand-and delivers especially, like Standards, Speed Shoots and Classifiers). But I wind up with a lot of "outside C's" and several D's that I had no clue were going to be on the target.

2) I maul plate racks, pins, and consecutive/lined up pieces of steel-- and call the shots that miss them 95% of the time. Steel mixed in with paper is a one-for-one proposition 90%+ of the time as well. I am in fact MOST confident/comfortable on steel-- especially poppers.

3) A few of my "surprise points down" are clearly from transitioning too early-- right on line with where the gun would be moving towards the next target. Many are "early" in the transition to the next target-- where the gun is tracking towards the A-zone.

4) Running Bill Drills at even 10 yards, I simply do not get past the middle of the C-zone with bad shots-- even out running my eyes/the sights, when I'm pushing/searching out my limits. Non-A hits are extremely rare to find any more than 1" outside of the zone, and I always have some visual or even physical feedback to indicate when/why it happened. (I.E. watching the sights drift towards the left of the target and start to track erratically, while feeling my right arm tense up, and death grip set in.) However, many of my "surprise points down" come on targets at or well inside this range.

5) While running my rifle, in practice and mini-matches, I know with 100% certainty where every shot goes-- called off the movement of the dot (EOTech) *and* the spot on the target where it's located. (Wow, it's such a cool feeling-- to the point where I realized yesterday it's not happening that way with my Production gun.)

Subsequent conclusions:

1) Indeed, the sights are not being disturbed through the trigger press-- I'm just not aiming where I need to be. Movement exacerbates this-- I'm not being visually patient enough, or just not looking for the proper spot on the targets. "Shooting brown."

2) The fixed distances, limited hit zones, lack of different scoring zones, and the distinct outlines of the plates, pins and poppers doesn't allow me to "shoot brown". It's hit or miss, and I have to index the sights properly no matter what.

3) I am fixated on the sights, and only half-aware of the target beyond them. I move the gun early and don't notice it, or break the shot early because I see "enough" target beyond the sights. (I think I'm jumping the gun on some of the transitions as well, and losing the visual patience to see the sights lift-- but it's far more rare, and a separate issue.)

4) With one target to draw to, I obviously start focused in on the upper A-zone and the first shot goes there. With nothing else to worry about, my visual focus keeps it there. As my technique breaks down on the trigger, it's simply not enough to account for the bad shots I see in stages (especially Field Courses). I *must* be "shooting brown".

5) Shooting a "dot" on the rifle means that there's only one focal plane, upon which the actual POA is super-imposed on a clearly visible target. I don't have anything else to be aware of-- no "clear focus on the front sight", sense of its relationship to the rears, and (the one I seem to be forgetting) awareness of how they're both indexed on the target. In other words, it's a lot easier-- and seeing what I need to see comes naturally.

It also occurs to me that I have never once worked on this in the time I've been taking my shooting seriously. That changes today in dry fire, for better or for worse-- and will extend to my long live-fire day on Friday. I just wanted to make sure this all made sense, and I wasn't ignoring/overlooking something...

[benos]

Before you shoot every target you will ever shoot - clearly define where you are going to shoot it. For example, for brown targets, you are going to find (see, visually) and shoot the center of the target. If brown targets are close enough so you can see the A-box, when you are visualizing the stage, visualize finding every target's A-box, and seeing the sights stop in the middle of it. Now how close the targets are - find (see) the middle of each one before you pull the trigger.

You also might try the Transition Drill in the Tips thread.

be

[Sin-ster]

Before you shoot every target you will ever shoot - clearly define where you are going to shoot it. For example, for brown targets, you are going to find (see, visually) and shoot the center of the target. If brown targets are close enough so you can see the A-box, when you are visualizing the stage, visualize finding every target's A-box, and seeing the sights stop in the middle of it. Now how close the targets are - find (see) the middle of each one before you pull the trigger.

You also might try the Transition Drill in the Tips thread.

be

As always, you take something that's so complicated in my head and make it simple!

When you say "see"... the center of the target, the A-box, the center of the A-box... you mean "see" in the loose terms, of whatever it takes to get the sights to index there before the shot breaks?

[Sin-ster]

Oh, and to add--

I found an older post in another thread where you suggested taping off the A-zone of a target and shooting it for a while. Then putting an un-taped target next to it, and doing transitions.

I'll run both of these this Friday-- but the diagnostic Transition Drill first, for a more accurate representation.

[benos]

Before you shoot every target you will ever shoot - clearly define where you are going to shoot it. For example, for brown targets, you are going to find (see, visually) and shoot the center of the target. If brown targets are close enough so you can see the A-box, when you are visualizing the stage, visualize finding every target's A-box, and seeing the sights stop in the middle of it. Now how close the targets are - find (see) the middle of each one before you pull the trigger.

You also might try the Transition Drill in the Tips thread.

be

As always, you take something that's so complicated in my head and make it simple!

When you say "see"... the center of the target, the A-box, the center of the A-box... you mean "see" in the loose terms, of whatever it takes to get the sights to index there before the shot breaks?

I wouldn't say "loose terms" - SEE, as in see the retangular shape of the A-box before the sights get there.

[Sin-ster]

Before you shoot every target you will ever shoot - clearly define where you are going to shoot it. For example, for brown targets, you are going to find (see, visually) and shoot the center of the target. If brown targets are close enough so you can see the A-box, when you are visualizing the stage, visualize finding every target's A-box, and seeing the sights stop in the middle of it. Now how close the targets are - find (see) the middle of each one before you pull the trigger.

You also might try the Transition Drill in the Tips thread.

be

As always, you take something that's so complicated in my head and make it simple!

When you say "see"... the center of the target, the A-box, the center of the A-box... you mean "see" in the loose terms, of whatever it takes to get the sights to index there before the shot breaks?

I wouldn't say "loose terms" - SEE, as in see the retangular shape of the A-box before the sights get there.

Right, right-- but see what I need to see... in order to see that box/spot.

Not see it in hard-focus terms, if it's not necessary to get the sights there promptly and efficiently. Right?

You say in your book, on the section about Level 3 Focus, that the mind is not always perceptive of seeing the target before it clarifies the sights-- but that if someone pays attention, they'll notice it happening. I discovered the truth in that statement the other day, as I never perceived my vision shifting at all-- but I can say with some certainty now that not all targets require 100% hard focus before my sights align on them.

I was using the profile of my flat screen computer monitor as the biggest reference point, @ about 7 yards. At that distance, it's just barely wide enough to appear on either side of the front sight-- but it was centered every time!

[benos]

Before you shoot every target you will ever shoot - clearly define where you are going to shoot it. For example, for brown targets, you are going to find (see, visually) and shoot the center of the target. If brown targets are close enough so you can see the A-box, when you are visualizing the stage, visualize finding every target's A-box, and seeing the sights stop in the middle of it. Now how close the targets are - find (see) the middle of each one before you pull the trigger.

You also might try the Transition Drill in the Tips thread.

be

As always, you take something that's so complicated in my head and make it simple!

When you say "see"... the center of the target, the A-box, the center of the A-box... you mean "see" in the loose terms, of whatever it takes to get the sights to index there before the shot breaks?

I wouldn't say "loose terms" - SEE, as in see the retangular shape of the A-box before the sights get there.

Right, right-- but see what I need to see... in order to see that box/spot.

Not see it in hard-focus terms, if it's not necessary to get the sights there promptly and efficiently. Right?

You say in your book, on the section about Level 3 Focus, that the mind is not always perceptive of seeing the target before it clarifies the sights--

My stance today (after the book was published) on that - know that you saw the A-box before you remember that you saw the sights within it.

be

[Wild Gene]

You can hit the target when you're standing there....right?

Shoot slow, move fast... An extra 10th on each target can easily be made up on transitions most of the time.

[Sin-ster]

My stance today (after the book was published) on that - know that you saw the A-box before you remember that you saw the sights within it.

be

Gotcha. Thanks for the in"sight" (pun intended)!

You'll have to fix that along with the title on the next re-write, eh?

As I said earlier, it's something that I've never worked at in the past. That alone screams that it needs attention!

[Sin-ster]

You can hit the target when you're standing there....right?

Shoot slow, move fast... An extra 10th on each target can easily be made up on transitions most of the time.

Oh, I hit them while I'm moving pretty well, too. The evidence suggests that trigger control or visual patience isn't my shortcoming. Way outrunning my sights on Bill Drills has proven that to me-- the shots are just never as errant as I get (far too often) in matches. Plus on exit targets, if I toss one, I typically call it (although not quickly enough to make it up-- I'm workin' on that, too!).

I'm just not hitting/aiming at the right darn spot! In fact, I think it's on the transitions (especially TO the next target) where I need to slow down. Rarely is it "Charlie, Delta" or even "2 Charlie"; it's almost always "Alpha-Delta", with the D in line of the muzzle's path as it was coming onto the target.

So I guess maybe it is partly visual patience as well-- not so much in getting the sights aligned, but getting them acceptably aligned in the A-zone for that first shot. (It is the first shot, BTW-- I've had people watch and report that to me several times.)

Thinking about this more and more, I realize that I may also be accepting too loose of a sight picture on certain targets-- because I don't assign the proper "difficulty" value to them, if that makes sense. Hard leaners at 10+ yards, for example...

[Wild Gene]

I get what you're thinking. I can watch my front sight all day on Bill Drills, because that is all I am doing, focusing on a single sight picture and target. No next position, no next target, no timer.

I think you've figured it out yourself, having the patience to get your sights acceptably aligned in the A-zone.

Take BE's advice and visualize where you are going to hit each target, but add this(in my opinion), visualize your sight picture on that spot of each target then breaking the shot. Trick your brain into believing that is the only time it is allowed to press the trigger. Then go out and shoot A's as fast as you can. It sure helped me.

wg

[Sin-ster]

I get what you're thinking. I can watch my front sight all day on Bill Drills, because that is all I am doing, focusing on a single sight picture and target. No next position, no next target, no timer.

I think you've figured it out yourself, having the patience to get your sights acceptably aligned in the A-zone.

Take BE's advice and visualize where you are going to hit each target, but add this(in my opinion), visualize your sight picture on that spot of each target then breaking the shot. Trick your brain into believing that is the only time it is allowed to press the trigger. Then go out and shoot A's as fast as you can. It sure helped me.

wg

Ahhh, very helpful!

Like the restriction put on the brain to only break the shot when the sight is acceptably aligned in the notch-- add the element of being indexed properly in the A-zone.

That's a simple thought process that I can implement right away, that should seriously shorten the learning curve. Much appreciated!

I will sincerely focus on this issue for the rest of the week, and make a concerted effort to carry it over to the Sunday match. Don't "try", I know-- but this will be more practice than competition. Perhaps I should say, "I will see this happening at my next match."

[jdphotoguy]

While I'm nowhere near your level of proficiency or level of understanding the mechanics of the sport, I do have to thank you for this thread. Your questions, self evaluations and Brian's responses have opened my eyes to why my skills seem to be going in a southernly direction as of late. Now I have some things to look for and practice on.

Best of luck at your next match, I have a feeling you'll win your division again.

[benos]

My stance today (after the book was published) on that - know that you saw the A-box before you remember that you saw the sights within it.

be

Gotcha. Thanks for the in"sight" (pun intended)!

You'll have to fix that along with the title on the next re-write, eh?

As I said earlier, it's something that I've never worked at in the past. That alone screams that it needs attention!

While I'm nowhere near your level of proficiency or level of understanding the mechanics of the sport, I do have to thank you for this thread. Your questions, self evaluations and Brian's responses have opened my eyes to why my skills seem to be going in a southernly direction as of late. Now I have some things to look for and practice on.

Best of luck at your next match, I have a feeling you'll win your division again.

Check out the Transition Drill. (The "secret" Part 2 specifically address this topic.)

be