hkguy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I just got my wife set up to transition over from SSP shooting with a USPc to shooting ESP with a STI Spartan. I added the features she wanted in a gun and it tips the scales at 42.5 oz with a 10 round mag inserted, with the max allowed being 43oz. My main question is, have i left enough wiggle room in terms of weight? i know that all scales will vary some but i want to avoid getting DQ'd because the scale at the match reads 43.1 oz. I have thought of a couple options to reduce weight like using a GI guide rod set up instead of a full length or i could slim down the funnel/speed chute a bit to take some weight off. Thanks for your feed back/suggestions. Here is a couple of pictures of my wifes new gun to give you an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 At 42.5 you should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike21STI Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 you wouldn't get dq'ed there is a variance of + or - .2 ounces. However if you are concerned you may want to pick up an aluminum full length guide rod. I added one to mine and it dropped .9 ounces from the total weight. Best of luck with it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 At 42.5 you should be fine. Agreed. Pretty gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You have a very lucky wife! You should have enough margin at 42.5 oz. There is also a lot of material on the main spring housing, and under the grips that can be "trimmed" without affecting function or durability, if your wife prefers to keep the gun nose heavy with the current guide rod that you have in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Sorry people, Mike21STI is correct, there is a + .2 oz wiggle. Addendums attached to p18. 43.5oz will be a DQ, but not 43.2oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SauconValley Shooter Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Good Morning, I would not be so sure about that Pete. The rule requires a scale with 0.2 ounce repeatability. What the rule is stipulating, is that if you weigh something on your scale, twice, both measurements have to be within 0.2 ounces. That does not automatically give everyone 0.2 over the listed maximum. The scale I use at my sanctioned matches measures to four decimal places and will give the measurement to three decimal places consistently. If a shooter's ESP gun weighed 43.1 ounces at my match, they would be out of luck. For anyone wondering, we have test weights on hand if someone disputes a measurement. But, to the original question, I would not worry about your half ounce margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I put an aluminum guide rod in mine. www.powerfactorshooting.com has them, use code "Shotgun" for a discount on Briley items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Good Morning, I would not be so sure about that Pete. The rule requires a scale with 0.2 ounce repeatability. What the rule is stipulating, is that if you weigh something on your scale, twice, both measurements have to be within 0.2 ounces. That does not automatically give everyone 0.2 over the listed maximum. The scale I use at my sanctioned matches measures to four decimal places and will give the measurement to three decimal places consistently. If a shooter's ESP gun weighed 43.1 ounces at my match, they would be out of luck. For anyone wondering, we have test weights on hand if someone disputes a measurement. But, to the original question, I would not worry about your half ounce margin. I am not sure why people are looking at the rule like that. There is no such language in the rule that indicates what you said. I believe that rule is written so that if I weigh a gun on my scale at home but take it across country to shoot a match and their scale reads a little different I get a .2 variance. Reading it any different just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You may want to take a closer look at the installed slide release lever... It was asked on the forum if extended slide releases on CDP and ESP guns were legal. Robert Ray of IDPA's answer: Sorry folks, the extended slide release is not on the inclusive list of approved modifications in CDP or ESP. There is a little wiggle room on width, but for extended I am referring to those that extend past and over the plunger tube housing. These most certainly would be a no go and would get a possible FTDR or DQ at the Nationals. Robert Ray IDPA HQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am not sure when you got that from Robert but it is right here in the adendum.... 3. Enhanced Service Pistol Division (ESP) Addition to PERMITED Modifications/Features page 22 15. Extended slide release. 16. Customization of the slide by adding front cocking serrations, engraving, tri-top, carry melts and high power cuts. 17. Ambidextrous or right side magazine releases. 4. Custom Defensive Pistol Division (CDP) Modification of rule C. page 23 C. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 42.0 oz., including an empty magazine. Addition to PERMITED Modifications/Features page 24 15. Extended slide release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 yup ..that answer i had was pre addendum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 yup ..that answer i had was pre addendum... I am not sure how you could make that mistake seeing as the rules for IDPA are all located in one easy to find place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike21STI Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Good Morning, I would not be so sure about that Pete. The rule requires a scale with 0.2 ounce repeatability. What the rule is stipulating, is that if you weigh something on your scale, twice, both measurements have to be within 0.2 ounces. That does not automatically give everyone 0.2 over the listed maximum. The scale I use at my sanctioned matches measures to four decimal places and will give the measurement to three decimal places consistently. If a shooter's ESP gun weighed 43.1 ounces at my match, they would be out of luck. For anyone wondering, we have test weights on hand if someone disputes a measurement. But, to the original question, I would not worry about your half ounce margin. That isn't the way it is enforced around here. We were advised by our AC that the .2 was allowed as a variance due to different scales and calibrations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkguy Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the feedback once again. My wife liked that her gun was "pretty". Once i add the extended mag release ill check the weight again and may go with the aluminum guide rod or have factory one bored out to trim some weight. Edited January 10, 2012 by hkguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike21STI Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't think extended mag releases are an approved modification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I don't think extended mag releases are an approved modification They are, they just can't be bigger in diameter or more than .2" out from the frame. Edit - That is in ESP and CDP Edited January 10, 2012 by Strick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astephenson Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My ESP 9mm Trojan weighs in at 42.7 ounces on my scale...it's been weighed at three majors and passed every time. It's close, but I don't sweat the EC any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickB Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 At our sanctioned match we interpret the rule to mean that as long as the scale reads less than 43.3 ounces (readout goes only one digit past the decimal), the gun is legal, but I have also seen/heard that the intent of the rule was not to allow .2 ounce of wiggle room for the gun, but, as sauconvalley said, for the scale. I'm not sure how that is supposed to work, so we've gone with allowing the gun to read as much as .2 over weight. Prior to the addendum, we used to tape over the readout to the right of the decimal, and as long as the whole number was 43 rather than 44, we considered the gun legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The addendum says: Weights for divisions will be measured to the full ounce listed. Any gun that weighs over the listed division weight, with a scale variance of no more than .2 oz, will not be legal for use in IDPA. The most common definition of the word "variance" I found that was related to numbers is with regards to measurement, physics, and statistics and defined to be "the quantity equal to the square of the standard deviation". The Wikipedia article is pretty dense, but there is a more readable explanation in Leard that is pretty easy to understand. Meterology, the science of measurements including weights, seems to ascribe to the above definition of variance, as well. SauconValley Shooter's view in post #7 fits with this almost perfectly, except may in terms of magnitude. (Somebody check my math, but I think each measurement on the scale should be within sqrt(0.2) = 0.4472 of each measurement, rather than within 0.2 of each measurement since variance is standard deviation squared.) There is one niggling detail, though. The addendum uses the unit "ounces", rather than "ounces squared". The latter is the appropriate unit of measure for variance as noted in Leard. So the less common definition of the word "variance" as used in accounting is defined to be "difference between the actual value and the expected value". The Wikipedia article for this definition is a lot less rigorous about how this is computed and whether it always a positive value or not. Mike21Sti's view in post #3 fits with the this perfectly. The expected value of 43 can be exceeded up to 43.2, because this would give a variance of 0.2. Additionally, the units are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The wording needs examples, which would clear up the author's intent. Koski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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