GrumpyOne Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Say a shooter surrenders his or her 8 rounds to the chrono officer, but the weights of the bullets are mixed. The sample has several 115's, some 121's, some 124's, some 147's, and possibly some 160's (9mm of course!). How would the chrono officer go about determining PF using mixed bullet types and weights from the same competitor? I understand that "5.8.1.5 Match Officials reserve the right to conduct chronograph or other tests on all and any ammunition, at any time, and a reason need not be given.", but they would either have to pull and weigh all the rounds to find out what weight they are, or shoot them over the chrono without knowing, either way, no conclusive PF could be assesed.... If the chrono officer gathered 8 more rounds, the mixture of bullet weights could be skewed from the first sample (I.E. the chrono officer got a random sampling of the competitors ammo, and this time he got 6 rounds of 147's, and 2 rounds of 115's). As far as I can see, there is no rule(s) in the rule book addressing this situation. Nothing says that all (the single competitors) ammo be the same, just that it must meet the critieria for the division the competitor is competing in.... By the rules, it can't be deemed "unsafe" if no squib or over charge is found, right? 5.5 Ammunition and Related Equipment 5.5.1 Magazines and speed loading devices must comply with the provisions of the relevant Division. 5.5.2 Spare magazines, speed loading devices or ammunition dropped or discarded by a competitor after the start signal may be retrieved, however, their retrieval is, at all times, subject to all safety rules. 5.5.3 Metal piercing, incendiary and/or tracer ammunition is prohibited at USPSA matches (see Rule 10.5.15). 5.5.4 All ammunition used by a competitor must satisfy the requirements of the relevant Division. (Appendix D) 5.5.5 Any ammunition deemed unsafe by a Range Officer must be immediately withdrawn from the match. 5.5.6 Ammunition must not discharge more than one bullet or other scoring projectile from a single round. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 WOW! What a scenario!! Not likely to happen since the vast majority of shooters use one load/weight/bullet for a match. But, if they did, one would hope the bullets were visually different; HP, RN, FP, etc. If not, how could the shooter chrono? Is it even possible? If the shooter can't chrono, they can't shoot for score. I think the responsibility is on the shooter, not the MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ok, so they pulled a bullet...It was a 160... The next ones fired over the chrono were 115's...It passes PF...But what if they pulled a 115 and shot the 160's? 34. From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph. Digits displayed on the official match bullet scales and chronograph will be used at face value, irrespective of the number of decimal places indicated on the measuring device used at the match. The only way I can see someone shooting for no score is to not give the chrono officer the ammo and the gun. We have satisfied that requirement.... 42. The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a Match Official will be removed from the match results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) The only way I can see someone shooting for no score is to not give the chrono officer the ammo and the gun. We have satisfied that requirement.... If they are all mixed up and no way to know, then that is not properly presenting the ammo per apx C2.42 you cited, imo. The only way it could be handled properly would be for the shooter to submit (8) 115s, (8) 147s, etc. since that's the ammo he would be using for score. All ammo must pass. If they're all jumbled up, well, have fun, but no score. seems more like a "replacement" ammo scenario, eg C2.41. would you deem 147s at 115 velocities safe?! It could be major pf, which I guess is ok, so nevermind... not an RO (class is in March!) and I didn't even stay at a holiday inn last night... -rvb Edited January 8, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 They'd only pull one bullet so I don't think they'd ever know that there was a weight variation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) They'd only pull one bullet so I don't think they'd ever know that there was a weight variation. what if all the boolits in the baggie looked totally different (hp, fmj, lead ball, swc, etc)? -rvb Edited January 8, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) The only way I can see someone shooting for no score is to not give the chrono officer the ammo and the gun. We have satisfied that requirement.... If they are all mixed up and no way to know, then that is not properly presenting the ammo per apx C2.42 you cited, imo. The only way it could be handled properly would be for the shooter to submit (8) 115s, (8) 147s, etc. since that's the ammo he would be using for score. All ammo must pass. If they're all jumbled up, well, have fun, but no score. How would that be not "properly presenting" the ammo? We don't give the chrono officer ammo to test, he randomly selects it. Our obligation is fulfilled, by the rules, once we have opened our ammo boxes for the chrono officer to take the random sampling.... seems more like a "replacement" ammo scenario, eg C2.41. Not getting different ammo, it's the ammo you brought with you to the match, you aren't replacing anything.... would you deem 147s at 115 velocities safe?! It could be major pf, which I guess is ok, so nevermind... not an RO (class is in March!) and I didn't even stay at a holiday inn last night... -rvb Edited January 8, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 They'd only pull one bullet so I don't think they'd ever know that there was a weight variation. what if all the boolits in the baggie looked totally different (hp, fmj, lead ball, swc, etc)? -rvb Suppose they did....Would they pull one of every type? That would be against the rules.... Supposed they all looked the same? I can't tell a 115 MG JHP from a MG 124 JHP without weighing or measuring. Loaded, they look the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ok, so they pulled a bullet...It was a 160... The next ones fired over the chrono were 115's...It passes PF...But what if they pulled a 115 and shot the 160's? 34. From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph. Digits displayed on the official match bullet scales and chronograph will be used at face value, irrespective of the number of decimal places indicated on the measuring device used at the match. The only way I can see someone shooting for no score is to not give the chrono officer the ammo and the gun. We have satisfied that requirement.... 42. The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a Match Official will be removed from the match results. The shooter goes subminor in that scenario -- pulled a 115, shot 160s..... No score.... Simple really. The reality is though, that chrono would most likely notice the different bullet types -- and at that point request 8 rounds of each load, all of which would then need to make power factor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 They'd only pull one bullet so I don't think they'd ever know that there was a weight variation. what if all the boolits in the baggie looked totally different (hp, fmj, lead ball, swc, etc)? -rvb Suppose they did....Would they pull one of every type? That would be against the rules.... Supposed they all looked the same? I can't tell a 115 MG JHP from a MG 124 JHP without weighing or measuring. Loaded, they look the same. And probably shoot close to the same, right? Might not be a problem, could end with subminor..... I'm not a fan of invoking 10.6.1, but if I caught a competitor who deliberately was shooting multiple loads without declaring them, I might disqualify the competitor from the match.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ok, so they pulled a bullet...It was a 160... The next ones fired over the chrono were 115's...It passes PF...But what if they pulled a 115 and shot the 160's? 34. From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph. Digits displayed on the official match bullet scales and chronograph will be used at face value, irrespective of the number of decimal places indicated on the measuring device used at the match. The only way I can see someone shooting for no score is to not give the chrono officer the ammo and the gun. We have satisfied that requirement.... 42. The scores of a competitor who, for any reason, fails to present his firearm for testing at the designated time and location and/or who fails to provide sample rounds for testing whenever requested by a Match Official will be removed from the match results. The shooter goes subminor in that scenario -- pulled a 115, shot 160s..... No score.... Simple really. The reality is though, that chrono would most likely notice the different bullet types -- and at that point request 8 rounds of each load, all of which would then need to make power factor.... Ok then....All FMJ bullets.....And for a kicker, let's say they are marked, but only in a way that only the competitor would know which are which..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ok then....All FMJ bullets.....And for a kicker, let's say they are marked, but only in a way that only the competitor would know which are which..... Unless the competitor tells someone, I don't see how anyone would know as long as the rounds fired make PF. In your scenario, is the shooter cheating or just getting rid of old loads that s/he has made PF with at other matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Just getting rid of old rounds....Thing is, even if they all made PF, the RO is going to notice a difference in either sound or notice the gun being snappy or sluggish, and he's gonna want it chronoed again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Grumpy, I've had shooters warn me of that -- that they were getting rid of old ammo, and would likely have different sound profiles, so that I wouldn't be tempted to stop them for a non-squib..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just getting rid of old rounds....Thing is, even if they all made PF, the RO is going to notice a difference in either sound or notice the gun being snappy or sluggish, and he's gonna want it chronoed again.... I doubt it, especially if the stage is after the chrono stage. All the shooter has to say is "I didn't notice anything" and the RO will likely drop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) They'd only pull one bullet so I don't think they'd ever know that there was a weight variation. what if all the boolits in the baggie looked totally different (hp, fmj, lead ball, swc, etc)? -rvb Suppose they did....Would they pull one of every type? That would be against the rules.... Supposed they all looked the same? I can't tell a 115 MG JHP from a MG 124 JHP without weighing or measuring. Loaded, they look the same. And probably shoot close to the same, right? Might not be a problem, could end with subminor..... I'm not a fan of invoking 10.6.1, but if I caught a competitor who deliberately was shooting multiple loads without declaring them, I might disqualify the competitor from the match.... Nik, how is he being unsportsman like? Where does it say we have to declare anything of the sort? All we have to declare is major or minor for PF....If it shoots, and makes PF, (the shooter knows they do, cause they tested them at home before the match), it is the onus of the chrono officer to verify. 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. The competitor is not cheating, is not being dishonest (if the question was never asked, how can he be dishonest if he doesn't answer?), competitor has complied with directions of the match official by handing over 8 rounds, and I don't think this would bring the sport into any disrepute.... Handing over 8 of each type of ammo, and having to test said ammo at the chrono stage, would take an exteme amount of time, slowing down the match, and technically would not be legal. They can't take more than 8 rounds at one time... 28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary. 29. It is recommended that ammunition be collected from competitors as randomly as is possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in competition. 30. Collected ammunition must be clearly labeled with the competitor’s identity. 31. Collected ammunition must be stored in a shaded location, out of the direct effects of the sun. When stored overnight, collected ammunition must be stored indoors at normal room temperature. 34. From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph. Digits displayed on the official match bullet scales and chronograph will be used at face value, irrespective of the number of decimal places indicated on the measuring device used at the match. Edited January 9, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 They'd only pull one bullet so I don't think they'd ever know that there was a weight variation. what if all the boolits in the baggie looked totally different (hp, fmj, lead ball, swc, etc)? -rvb Suppose they did....Would they pull one of every type? That would be against the rules.... Supposed they all looked the same? I can't tell a 115 MG JHP from a MG 124 JHP without weighing or measuring. Loaded, they look the same. And probably shoot close to the same, right? Might not be a problem, could end with subminor..... I'm not a fan of invoking 10.6.1, but if I caught a competitor who deliberately was shooting multiple loads without declaring them, I might disqualify the competitor from the match.... Nik, how is he being unsportsman like? Where does it say we have to declare anything of the sort? All we have to declare is major or minor for PF....If it shoots, and makes PF, (the shooter knows they do, cause they tested them at home before the match), it is the onus of the chrono officer to verify. 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. The competitor is not cheating, is not being dishonest (if the question was never asked, how can he be dishonest if he doesn't answer?), competitor has complied with directions of the match official by handing over 8 rounds, and I don't think this would bring the sport into any disrepute.... Grumpy, really? How many competitors compete in majors -- usually the only matches with chrono -- with more than one ammo type? How many of those competitors don't understand the purpose of chrono? How many of those competitors would "bring a random mix of old rounds to burn off, loadings that are very different from one another, yet appear to be identical?" That's a pretty wild scenario..... I know of one grandmaster who was planning on taking two different loads to Nationals -- one with 115s for the 50 yard standards, one with 147s for everything else. He was planning on offering up both loads for chrono. That is the correct approach..... Purposely bringing multiple loads, but only volunteering one for chrono is equivalent to an attempt at cheating for me. That's where I draw the line..... And that falls within the area of interpretation imposed upon me, by my NROI training. (No, it's not specifically spelled out, because even competitors bringing two batches of ammo to a match is pretty rare -- and most, savvy enough to do that, would also be savvy enough to cover themselves by having both loads chronographed....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Oh, and to make it even simpler -- a lie of omission is still a lie..... In response to: "If the question was never asked...." The person collecting the ammo asked for a chrono sample of the competitor's ammo. Do I now need to ask every competitor how many loads they will be shooting? Come on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 They'd only pull one bullet so I don't think they'd ever know that there was a weight variation. what if all the boolits in the baggie looked totally different (hp, fmj, lead ball, swc, etc)? -rvb Suppose they did....Would they pull one of every type? That would be against the rules.... Supposed they all looked the same? I can't tell a 115 MG JHP from a MG 124 JHP without weighing or measuring. Loaded, they look the same. And probably shoot close to the same, right? Might not be a problem, could end with subminor..... I'm not a fan of invoking 10.6.1, but if I caught a competitor who deliberately was shooting multiple loads without declaring them, I might disqualify the competitor from the match.... Nik, how is he being unsportsman like? Where does it say we have to declare anything of the sort? All we have to declare is major or minor for PF....If it shoots, and makes PF, (the shooter knows they do, cause they tested them at home before the match), it is the onus of the chrono officer to verify. 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. The competitor is not cheating, is not being dishonest (if the question was never asked, how can he be dishonest if he doesn't answer?), competitor has complied with directions of the match official by handing over 8 rounds, and I don't think this would bring the sport into any disrepute.... Grumpy, really? How many competitors compete in majors -- usually the only matches with chrono -- with more than one ammo type? How many of those competitors don't understand the purpose of chrono? How many of those competitors would "bring a random mix of old rounds to burn off, loadings that are very different from one another, yet appear to be identical?" That's a pretty wild scenario..... I know of one grandmaster who was planning on taking two different loads to Nationals -- one with 115s for the 50 yard standards, one with 147s for everything else. He was planning on offering up both loads for chrono. That is the correct approach..... Purposely bringing multiple loads, but only volunteering one for chrono is equivalent to an attempt at cheating for me. That's where I draw the line..... And that falls within the area of interpretation imposed upon me, by my NROI training. (No, it's not specifically spelled out, because even competitors bringing two batches of ammo to a match is pretty rare -- and most, savvy enough to do that, would also be savvy enough to cover themselves by having both loads chronographed....) Nik, I'm not saying they didn't offer it, on the contrary, they opened all their ammo boxes to the chrono officer and said "Take your pick!" And, I'm not saying that has happened or will happen....But it can happen.....It is still the onus of the chrono officer to determine PF..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Oh, and to make it even simpler -- a lie of omission is still a lie..... In response to: "If the question was never asked...." The person collecting the ammo asked for a chrono sample of the competitor's ammo. Do I now need to ask every competitor how many loads they will be shooting? Come on..... Read 34 again....It is drawn by the chrono official, not given by the competitor. If it were given by the competitor, that's a sure fire way to cheat, and not get caught....That's the entire purpose behind the chrono officer drawing the random sample....Even if the shooter were to say when the match official was drawing the ammo "Hey, by the way, all of those are not the same, there are several different types and weights in there..." It is still the onus of the chrono official to determine PF, and he can't collect but 8 rounds, initially.... 34. From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph. Digits displayed on the official match bullet scales and chronograph will be used at face value, irrespective of the number of decimal places indicated on the measuring device used at the match. Edited January 9, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Oh, and to make it even simpler -- a lie of omission is still a lie..... In response to: "If the question was never asked...." The person collecting the ammo asked for a chrono sample of the competitor's ammo. Do I now need to ask every competitor how many loads they will be shooting? Come on..... There is no requirement for the competitor to tell the match official what weight the bullet is...That is why they pull one bullet....so that they don't or won't take the competitors word for what the weight is....The shooter did not omit anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Oh, and to make it even simpler -- a lie of omission is still a lie..... In response to: "If the question was never asked...." The person collecting the ammo asked for a chrono sample of the competitor's ammo. Do I now need to ask every competitor how many loads they will be shooting? Come on..... Read 34 again....It is drawn by the chrono official, not given by the competitor. If it were given by the competitor, that's a sure fire way to cheat, and not get caught....That's the entire purpose behind the chrono officer drawing the random sample....Even if the shooter were to say when the match official was drawing the ammo "Hey, by the way, all of those are not the same, there are several different types and weights in there..." It is still the onus of the chrono official to determine PF, and he can't collect but 8 rounds, initially.... 34. From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph. Digits displayed on the official match bullet scales and chronograph will be used at face value, irrespective of the number of decimal places indicated on the measuring device used at the match. While the rules state the above, I have only one time seen the ChronoDude at any match actually draw the ammo. At the first stage of every match save that one we are asked to provide 8 rounds and they are collected and transferred over to the CD. It was a local match where we ran a chrono and when the shooters arrived at the stage, I or the other person running the chrono took the ammo from a magazine on his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Oh, and to make it even simpler -- a lie of omission is still a lie..... In response to: "If the question was never asked...." The person collecting the ammo asked for a chrono sample of the competitor's ammo. Do I now need to ask every competitor how many loads they will be shooting? Come on..... Read 34 again....It is drawn by the chrono official, not given by the competitor. If it were given by the competitor, that's a sure fire way to cheat, and not get caught....That's the entire purpose behind the chrono officer drawing the random sample....Even if the shooter were to say when the match official was drawing the ammo "Hey, by the way, all of those are not the same, there are several different types and weights in there..." It is still the onus of the chrono official to determine PF, and he can't collect but 8 rounds, initially.... 34. From the eight sample rounds drawn by Match Officials, one bullet is weighed to determine the actual bullet weight and three bullets are fired over the chronograph. Digits displayed on the official match bullet scales and chronograph will be used at face value, irrespective of the number of decimal places indicated on the measuring device used at the match. While the rules state the above, I have only one time seen the ChronoDude at any match actually draw the ammo. At the first stage of every match save that one we are asked to provide 8 rounds and they are collected and transferred over to the CD. It was a local match where we ran a chrono and when the shooters arrived at the stage, I or the other person running the chrono took the ammo from a magazine on his belt. Either way, they are collected by a match official, not given by the competitor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I agree with Nik on this one. It is cheating. You can BET if the chrono guy pulled a bullet then shot other bullets to the detriment of the shooter, the shooter would be telling everyone who would listen that they brought various loads and he'd like to get chronoed again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I agree with Nik on this one. It is cheating. You can BET if the chrono guy pulled a bullet then shot other bullets to the detriment of the shooter, the shooter would be telling everyone who would listen that they brought various loads and he'd like to get chronoed again. Still not cheating, if all the rounds make PF....The chrono guy just doesn't know which ones he fired...Besides, even if you told him they were mixed, and they all looked the same, he still wouldn't know which one he fired, only which one he pulled.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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