Top shelf vs. middle shelf

[caz41]

In the big picture of a dedicated 3 gun rifle how do the cards fall in regards to the top shelf (JP, Noveske, etc) compared to the middle shelf as I called it since they are certainly not bottom shelf rifles (Stag 3G, DPMS 3G1, etc) The cost difference is less than 1/2 to buy a new 3G compared to buying a new CTR-02. But is there a noticable difference in terms of accuracy, reliability, durability?

[Mbauer67]

The key is buying the best parts where it matters and good parts where it is not that important.

My rifle has a white oak barrel, all JP internals, and a vltor receiver. And I can shoot some really tight groups out to 500.

[Lead-Head]

You know there are a lot of pretty decent rifles out there, and several makers of good parts. I see so many questions posted about first 3 gun rifle or build, and guys are talking about spending more on their first AR than many spend on their first car.

A rifle with a good barrel, trigger, and sighting system can be competetive in 3 gun. Does not matter if you bought it off the shelf or or built it in your garage.

Ask yourself "how much better would my scores be with a $2500 rifle than a $1000 rifle?" If the answer is "I have no idea, probably the same, or they all look alike to me" get a good rifle that is entry level and spend the $1500 on ammo, travel, and match fees.

Just my 0.02

[CareyH]

its like any other game/toy, you can spend as much as you want. Is a $2500 set of clubs better than my $300 set? probley.... am I good enough to tell the difference, no.

Get a middle of the road rifle and spend the money you saved on ammo!

[bigbrowndog]

RNT has said it before I guess it needs saying again, "all you need in a rifle is reliability and the ability to hit a 2moa target from any distance" thats all!!! anything better than that in accuracy isn't "needed" if I had to choose between more accuracy or more reliability it would be reliability, hands down.

Trapr

Edited January 8, 2012 by bigbrowndog

[caz41]

RNT has said it before I guess it needs saying again, "all you need in a rifle is reliability and the ability to hit a 2moa target from any distance" thats all!!! anything better than that in accuracy isn't "needed" if I had to choose between more accuracy or more reliability it would be reliability, hands down.

Trapr

I agree with you completely, but the question remains as to whether the "middle shelf" rifles provide the accuracy and reliability. And if they do, is it the same level of both as compared to the "top shelf" rifles.

[blu46and2]

Buy the best that you can afford. That's the simple answer. If the best that you can afford is a middle shelf rifle get, shoot it and have fun. You can always upgrade later. Buy the best that you can afford and you will be fine.

Middle shelf rifles provide plenty of accuracy for 3-gun matches. They are not typically, although some have been getting pretty close, precision rifle matches. Middle shelf should provide you plenty enough accuracy out to 400 yds.

Edited January 8, 2012 by blu46and2

[Dan Sierpina]

I agree with you completely, but the question remains as to whether the "middle shelf" rifles provide the accuracy and reliability. And if they do, is it the same level of both as compared to the "top shelf" rifles.

Maybe not the same accuracy, maybe the same. Accuracy is a crap shoot, so many variables with ammo. Some shoot extremely well with a variety of ammo, some shoot well with one or two loads. Two barrels from the same barrel maker may not shoot the same. Reliability should be good with either top shelf or middle shelf. If both are properly maintained.

[Vespid_Wasp]

You can build a rifle with all the important parts for accuracy, reliability, and soft shooting... for under 1k. Then figure optics.

You can definitely have a complete limited gun for well under 1k but some would say you are cutting corners in a few areas.

In my experience, reliability is easy to come by with an AR. Accuracy is only a little more difficult but the extra step for accuracy doesn't effect reliability.

* caveat *

If you start cutting legs and tweaking springs in your trigger assembly, light strikes and triggers that don't reset are easy to come by.

[mpeltier]

A middle shelf rifle with upper shelf skills will always beat an upper shelf rifle with middle shelf skills.

[SMSI]

Buy the best that you can afford. That's the simple answer. If the best that you can afford is a middle shelf rifle get, shoot it and have fun. You can always upgrade later. Buy the best that you can afford and you will be fine.

This is good advice whether you're talking guns, bicycles, golf clubs - whatever. If a rich guy shows up with a very good expensive rifle and he can't really get the most out of it - people will say that he is a weak shooter. If the same rich guy shows with a cheap piece of junk, they will say he is a weak shooter and a cheapskate. Better to grow into your gear that out grow it quickly. On the other hand, there is no good reason to spend the kids college fund for a piece of sporting equipment.

[Religious Shooter]

Looking at the specs on those rifles from Stag and DPMS, I don't think they come with adjustable gas or lightened bolts. IMHO I think the lightened bolt is a must. The adjustable gas I can live without. But I would still get it for a 3G rifle. I think chances are a full JP rifle will shoot softer than the Stag/DPMS straight from the factory.

I haven't bought full rifles. But I've bought and paid for JP assembled uppers. Prior to that I used (and continue to use) DPMS/Nordic/DTI/etc. barrels assembled with standard uppers assembled by the factory or by a well known smith.

I had one of the above uppers that had about 10-15K rounds. I checked it for accuracy at 100 yards. With the initial two groups it would hold 1-1.5 MOA. I checked it after 2-3 magazines and it was now doing 3 MOA and the center of the group had moved up. To the point that my hit rate degraded with the 300-400 yard targets at my home range.

I bought JP uppers because of this experience. It may be vodoo and BS but JP barrels are cryoed and are "Thermo-fit" to the receiver. Any upper/barrel will do 1-1.5 MOA initially. But what is it doing at the end of a stage after you have fired a fast 30-40 rounds?

But... I honestly don't know what my JP uppers will do when its scalding hot. I haven't had the time to test them out.

[SinistralRifleman]

As others said as long as it shoots 2MOA I don't care. Reliability is more important than uber accuracy. As far as reliability goes, most of the competition type mods reduce reliability or at least make it less forgiving as far as ammo used and cleaning; the mid tier uppers that are 5.56mm NATO Chrome lined have an advantage in this area. I have chrome lined uppers that get 2MOA or better accuracy easily.

I'm more comfortable using less expensive stuff because I don't feel bad about using it hard and scratching it up.

Edited January 8, 2012 by SinistralRifleman

[Doug H.]

Looking at the specs on those rifles from Stag and DPMS, I don't think they come with adjustable gas or lightened bolts. IMHO I think the lightened bolt is a must. The adjustable gas I can live without. But I would still get it for a 3G rifle. I think chances are a full JP rifle will shoot softer than the Stag/DPMS straight from the factory.

I haven't bought full rifles. But I've bought and paid for JP assembled uppers. Prior to that I used (and continue to use) DPMS/Nordic/DTI/etc. barrels assembled with standard uppers assembled by the factory or by a well known smith.

I had one of the above uppers that had about 10-15K rounds. I checked it for accuracy at 100 yards. With the initial two groups it would hold 1-1.5 MOA. I checked it after 2-3 magazines and it was now doing 3 MOA and the center of the group had moved up. To the point that my hit rate degraded with the 300-400 yard targets at my home range.

I bought JP uppers because of this experience. It may be vodoo and BS but JP barrels are cryoed and are "Thermo-fit" to the receiver. Any upper/barrel will do 1-1.5 MOA initially. But what is it doing at the end of a stage after you have fired a fast 30-40 rounds?

But... I honestly don't know what my JP uppers will do when its scalding hot. I haven't had the time to test them out.

I second this. I shot a Rock River to start in 3 gun and always had trouble towards the end of the stage hitting long steel. When I check groups with a hot gun they were much larger than with a cold barrel. My JP upper does not change point of impact after several mags. In fact when I shoot my JP for grouping and zero I fire 20 or 30 rounds to warm up the gun before checking anything. Still shoots nice and tight when hot!

Doug

[Nik Habicht]

In the big picture of a dedicated 3 gun rifle how do the cards fall in regards to the top shelf (JP, Noveske, etc) compared to the middle shelf as I called it since they are certainly not bottom shelf rifles (Stag 3G, DPMS 3G1, etc) The cost difference is less than 1/2 to buy a new 3G compared to buying a new CTR-02. But is there a noticable difference in terms of accuracy, reliability, durability?

You don't need a CTR-02. You can save some money. Grab a lower that's built the way you want it with a stock trigger. Send it to JP, and have them drop their trigger in it, and have them ship it back with a JP-15 upper. You're looking at $1200 for the upper, $220 for the trigger, installed. So you're at $1420, plus whatever the lower costs, plus some shipping charges to get your lower out to them. I'm thinking you still save ~ $800.....

That's a good down payment on an optic, or a fair amount of ammo....

[pjb45]

I have a Bushmaster upper and lower. I traded Browning shotgun for it.

It is filled with JP parts that I purchased when I could afford them.

Later, I had a Sabre Defense barrel mounted.

It shoots a 1/3 MOA.

I am just a beginner in 3G but my guns are good.

I know a few guys that shoot DPMS. It is a good rifle.

You do not need a JP to shoot 3G and be competitive. You really need a reliable gun with good accuracy. Buy the best scope you can afford. The real key to exception performance is knowing your zeros with your scope.

[Chills1994]

I don't know if Brownell's is going to do it this year, but in years past at the SHOT shows they normally give out a SHOT show discount code that is good until tax day, April 15th.

If you have a Brownell's gunsmithing or LE discount already, then I think with the SHOT show discount you get a grand total of 20% off of their retail prices.

There are a lot... ALOT!! of internet mall ninja keyboard Gecko45 commandos out there who go all ga ga eyed over Noveske this, and LMT that, or BCM whatchyamacallit...and they love to spend your money for you. Just don't fall for that kinda kool-aid.

As of a few years ago, there were like just 3 major manufacturers of AR lowers, then these other so called "manufacturers" just pay or license whether to have say a snake or panther stamped or engraved on the outside of the mag well. It's 2012 now, maybe that has changed.

[steviesterno]

I think it might depend on what you're trying to get out of the sport and where you are. I shot my first 3 gun with a stock Stag 16" with a red dot and Herter's ammo. I couldn't hit anything at 200 yards, but inside 50 my times were right there with the best of them.

Then I started to upgrade as I learned more about the sport, and what I needed to do to make the shots I had to. Put on a comp, free float tube, and JP springs in the trigger ($100 for all that) and started to hit the gongs occasionally. Switched from Herters to real ammo, which was only $1 a box more. Then I slapped on a used Trijicon TR 24 I paid way too little for ($425 or so). dropped in a timney trigger group (don't get too hung up on which group, try them all, they are all good but it's personal preference).

Now I'm into the whole gun for around $1200, it's set up EXACTLY how I want it to be, and I have been kicking ass with it. I actually timed out on my first 200 yard stage. Last match, I won the 200 yard stage. That's in less than a summer and with less practice than I care to admit...

[AKJD]

I may not be a real ninja commando like Chills but parts ain't parts. Yes there are relatively few makers of uppers and lowers and those manufacturers do sell them too many different companies but that does not mean all rifles are equal. For example take a LPK from DPMS or Bushmaster and dump its contents next to one from Colt and if you can't tell the difference it's because you don't want to see it. Does it matter, maybe not, I guess it depends on whats important to you. The areas where the so called upper tier manufacturers get a leg up on their so called lower tier competitors is in quality of components, care of assembly and quality control. Are they perfect, no, just better.

I would bet that more potential shooters of ARs have been turned off of the platform by companies such as Bushmaster with their improperly staked or unstaked bolt carrier keys than you can shake a stick at. Newbie is all proud of his new AR takes it home and after a shooting a mag the thing won't work since the key is loose, he can't figure it out and the guy behind the gun counter doesn't know any more than he does so he sells the rifle and has been badmouthing that unreliable POS AR 15 ever since.

You usually get what you pay for and AR's are no exception. Some of the lower priced guns will run just fine, some won't. The chances of getting a bad gun with the upper tier manufactures is less and they usually have better customer service. So it all boils down to what you expect to get from your rifle and how much are you willing to pay to get it. It does not take a $2500 rifle to be competitive but there's nothing wrong with having one if that's what you want.

I don't own any guns from Noveske, Colt, etc because I build my own. I have been working on these guns since I first attended armorer school in 1981. I use DPMS lowers because I can buy them at the base PX. I use whatever upper Brownells has that interests me. I also know what to look for to make sure they meet my needs. I also always use quality parts.

[mlmiller1]

My opinion is the odds of having a reliable accurate rifle go up the better name you buy. You may buy the cheapest AR you can find & it might be awesome, both accuracy & reliability but I say the odds are much lower on that being the case than if you buy for example a Firebird or a JP. Basically, you increase your chances of having a great gun by spending more money. Just my opinion & honestly don't spend more than you can afford but spend all you can.

MLM

[smokshwn]

RNT has said it before I guess it needs saying again, "all you need in a rifle is reliability and the ability to hit a 2moa target from any distance" thats all!!! anything better than that in accuracy isn't "needed" if I had to choose between more accuracy or more reliability it would be reliability, hands down.

Trapr

I agree with you completely, but the question remains as to whether the "middle shelf" rifles provide the accuracy and reliability. And if they do, is it the same level of both as compared to the "top shelf" rifles.

Given the mid shelf rifles you listed they are all more than capable of what you are asking. To ask if they are exactly the same probably not. But just for argument sake let's say a JP CTR02 is a 1/2 MOA gun and a DPMS 3G1 is a 1MOA gun. There are very few shooters that can take advantage of that 1/2 MOA from the bench let alone under match conditions.

With respect to reliability any of the guns listed will be very hard to make fail assuming simple maintenance, quality ammo and magazines.

[Nik Habicht]

In the big picture of a dedicated 3 gun rifle how do the cards fall in regards to the top shelf (JP, Noveske, etc) compared to the middle shelf as I called it since they are certainly not bottom shelf rifles (Stag 3G, DPMS 3G1, etc) The cost difference is less than 1/2 to buy a new 3G compared to buying a new CTR-02. But is there a noticable difference in terms of accuracy, reliability, durability?

You don't need a CTR-02. You can save some money. Grab a lower that's built the way you want it with a stock trigger. Send it to JP, and have them drop their trigger in it, and have them ship it back with a JP-15 upper. You're looking at $1200 for the upper, $220 for the trigger, installed. So you're at $1420, plus whatever the lower costs, plus some shipping charges to get your lower out to them. I'm thinking you still save ~ $800.....

That's a good down payment on an optic, or a fair amount of ammo....

I'll add this is the path I took a few years ago. Firebird Precision didn't exist at the time. For a build today, I'd probably pick Firebird, just to see what they could do. I already know that JP built me a great rifle. I'd have no hesitation having them build another either...

[59Bassman]

In the big picture of a dedicated 3 gun rifle how do the cards fall in regards to the top shelf (JP, Noveske, etc) compared to the middle shelf as I called it since they are certainly not bottom shelf rifles (Stag 3G, DPMS 3G1, etc) The cost difference is less than 1/2 to buy a new 3G compared to buying a new CTR-02. But is there a noticable difference in terms of accuracy, reliability, durability?

I just finished building my new rifle. I've been working on it over the past year, shooting my my old RRA midlength upper at my local matches as I figured out what I wanted and bought it piece by piece. Had I known that Stag would be release that rifle, it would have a lot easier (and probably cheaper) to buy the Stag and shoot the heck out of it. One of my friends is now about to buy the Stag, and I think it will be just fine. I've yet to really see a failure in any of the AR's that wasn't trying to run oddball ammo (either cheap russian 5.56, or chambered in something else like 5.45). AR failures don't seem to be that common, except optic-related (scopes losing zero, etc). All seem to be reliable, and most seem to be accurate enough for what we do.

Maybe I'm not giving myself enough credit, but at this point I really don't think that the difference between a Stag (or my Nordic-barreled BCM/Troy upper) and a JP or Firebird will be what keeps me from visiting a prize table. Maybe by the time I wear my new barrel out, it will matter. Until then, the price difference allowed me to buy a nice optic and a pile of reloading components and ammo to practice my rifle skills as well as what really seems to matter, shotgun reloading.

I think there is a difference, but until I'm missing the top spots by a matter of seconds, I don't think it's enough to matter for me.

Edited January 8, 2012 by 59Bassman

[warpspeed]

I see things a bit different.

Let' say I'm not a top level shooter in this whole USPSA / 3 gun thing. Hell, I'm not even a mid level shooter. So when I shoot at the center, where I think I am aiming, I am not so likely to hit. The more accurate my firearm, the smaller my miss. Instead of a miss on a plate at 200yds I get an edge hit because my JP Rifle is 1/2 MOA. If my rifle is a 2 MOA that is a miss and another shot or 2 or 3.

As I get better, with more practice and more experience, that 1/2 MOA is not as critical but to a new shooter, I think it could be the difference between enjoying a match and leaving pissed, unhappy , discouraged and not wanting to shoot again.

Not to mention that 1/2 MOA rifle built by a top level builder will run 100%. That too will make the match more fun than a rifle that pukes.

So, my suggestion is to buy the best you can afford.

[caz41]

What kind of accuracy is the Stag putting out?