Table starts and strong/weak hand only strings

[Skydiver]

After seeing some elements of the "no scooping" rules in the 2012 IPSC rules (10.2.8), I'm left wondering whether scooping is allowed in USPSA.

To make things concrete, the WSB for a standard exercise is:

Start position:

Standing erect with hips against rear table edge. Handgun loaded and ready laying flat centered on X at table.

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each freestyle.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each strong hand only.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each weak hand only.

So the question are:

After the start signal on strings 2 and 3, is the shooter allowed to use the other hand to help pick up the gun off the table?

Is this a simple procedural per occurence?

The closest relevant rules I could find in the current USPSA rulebook were:

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

My reading of 1.1.5.3 is that for strings 2 and 3, the shooter would incur a procedural if they used their other hand to help pick up the gun.

[Schutzenmeister]

After seeing some elements of the "no scooping" rules in the 2012 IPSC rules (10.2.8), I'm left wondering whether scooping is allowed in USPSA.

To make things concrete, the WSB for a standard exercise is:

Start position:

Standing erect with hips against rear table edge. Handgun loaded and ready laying flat centered on X at table.

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each freestyle.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each strong hand only.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each weak hand only.

So the question are:

After the start signal on strings 2 and 3, is the shooter allowed to use the other hand to help pick up the gun off the table?

Is this a simple procedural per occurence?

The closest relevant rules I could find in the current USPSA rulebook were:

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

My reading of 1.1.5.3 is that for strings 2 and 3, the shooter would incur a procedural if they used their other hand to help pick up the gun.

Negative ... Not in USPSA. (That is a new IPSC only rule.)

The only time under USPSA rules you can receive a penalty is if you use the "forbiden" hand or arm while actually firing a shot. So long as you do not fire while "fouling," you're good to go. IPSC changed their rules effective 1 January 2012 as you have noted.

The key words in (USPSA) 10.2.8 are "one procedural penalty per shot fired while:" ... Hence, if you do not fire a shot, there is no penalty.

[Outsydlooknin75]

I believe that USPSA will not require to draw with the weak hand. I believe picking up a gun from a table is the same as drawing.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[Schutzenmeister]

I believe that USPSA will not require to draw with the weak hand. I believe picking up a gun from a table is the same as drawing.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

Negative ... A draw and a table pickup are two seperate critters. The rule you seem to be relying on is 8.2.4 ... It prohibits requiring the shooter to draw "from the holster" with the weak hand.

[Skydiver]

So the "point stipulated" in 1.1.5.3 is only useful when a WSB says something like "Engage X freestyle, perform a mandatory reload, and engage X with strong hand only"? The "point stipulated" being the time after the reload.

If the stage procedure were re-written as below, would it matter?

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun with strong hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun with weak hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Skydiver

[Outsydlooknin75]

I believe that USPSA will not require to draw with the weak hand. I believe picking up a gun from a table is the same as drawing.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

Negative ... A draw and a table pickup are two seperate critters. The rule you seem to be relying on is 8.2.4 ... It prohibits requiring the shooter to draw "from the holster" with the weak hand.

You are correct, I forgot from the holster.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[Mark R]

So the "point stipulated" in 1.1.5.3 is only useful when a WSB says something like "Engage X freestyle, perform a mandatory reload, and engage X with strong hand only"? The "point stipulated" being the time after the reload.

If the stage procedure were re-written as below, would it matter?

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun with strong hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun with weak hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each.

With this WSB, what would prevent a shooter from picking up the gun weak hand (or strong hand) and move it to strong hand before engaging targets? You have 2 actions...pickup, and engage. If you want them to engage strong or weak hand, you need to state it in the engage section of the phrase...e.g. ...and engage T1-T4 with two rounds only using weak hand only.

And you might want a disclaimer to allow malfunctions to be cleared with both hands.

[Skydiver]

So the "point stipulated" in 1.1.5.3 is only useful when a WSB says something like "Engage X freestyle, perform a mandatory reload, and engage X with strong hand only"? The "point stipulated" being the time after the reload.

If the stage procedure were re-written as below, would it matter?

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun with strong hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun with weak hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each.

With this WSB, what would prevent a shooter from picking up the gun weak hand (or strong hand) and move it to strong hand before engaging targets? You have 2 actions...pickup, and engage. If you want them to engage strong or weak hand, you need to state it in the engage section of the phrase...e.g. ...and engage T1-T4 with two rounds only using weak hand only.

And you might want a disclaimer to allow malfunctions to be cleared with both hands.

Good point!

So revised it would be:

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun with strong hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each strong hand only.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun with weak hand only, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each weak hand only.

I don't think the disclaimer is needed because 10.2.8 already allows flipping off safeties, reloading, and dealing with malfunctions. On the other hand, it never hurts to have that extra reminder unless you are the CRO reading out the WSB over the 3 days. Save your voice reading the WSB verbatim, or save your voice answering the inevitable shooters question.

[sperman]

Or you could just let the shooter pick up the gun any way he wants.

[Skydiver]

Yup! There's that too. As they say when designing stages, if you really want the shooter to use just one hand, have the other hand occupied doing something else.

Anyway, I'm coming to the conclusion that the second sentence of 1.1.5.3 ( "The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage." ) is almost useless if a WSB is written well.

Thanks for all the responses folks!

[The Antichrome]

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported.

It's pretty clear.

[Nik Habicht]

After seeing some elements of the "no scooping" rules in the 2012 IPSC rules (10.2.8), I'm left wondering whether scooping is allowed in USPSA.

To make things concrete, the WSB for a standard exercise is:

Start position:

Standing erect with hips against rear table edge. Handgun loaded and ready laying flat centered on X at table.

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each freestyle.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each strong hand only.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each weak hand only.

So the question are:

After the start signal on strings 2 and 3, is the shooter allowed to use the other hand to help pick up the gun off the table?

Is this a simple procedural per occurence?

The closest relevant rules I could find in the current USPSA rulebook were:

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

My reading of 1.1.5.3 is that for strings 2 and 3, the shooter would incur a procedural if they used their other hand to help pick up the gun.

Incur a procedural under which rule? Can you find one in Chapter 10?

[Nik Habicht]

Yup! There's that too. As they say when designing stages, if you really want the shooter to use just one hand, have the other hand occupied doing something else.

Anyway, I'm coming to the conclusion that the second sentence of 1.1.5.3 ( "The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage." ) is almost useless if a WSB is written well.

Thanks for all the responses folks!

It's not useless -- but generally we're concerned about the shooting, not anything else, at that point....

[Skydiver]

After seeing some elements of the "no scooping" rules in the 2012 IPSC rules (10.2.8), I'm left wondering whether scooping is allowed in USPSA.

To make things concrete, the WSB for a standard exercise is:

Start position:

Standing erect with hips against rear table edge. Handgun loaded and ready laying flat centered on X at table.

Stage procedure:

String 1: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each freestyle.

String 2: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each strong hand only.

String 3: At signal, pick up gun, and engage T1-T4 with two rounds each weak hand only.

So the question are:

After the start signal on strings 2 and 3, is the shooter allowed to use the other hand to help pick up the gun off the table?

Is this a simple procedural per occurence?

The closest relevant rules I could find in the current USPSA rulebook were:

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

My reading of 1.1.5.3 is that for strings 2 and 3, the shooter would incur a procedural if they used their other hand to help pick up the gun.

Incur a procedural under which rule? Can you find one in Chapter 10?

I was basing it on 10.2.2 (not following a stage procedure) where the hand was not used exclusively from the point stipulated. But as I've been educated by the previous responses, the exclusive use is with regards to shooting and not necessarily other manipulations, so the procedural would not apply.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Skydiver