Next multi-gun shotgun

[Zebraman]

I was sitting at work daydreaming the other day, when I started thinking about a new shotgun for the multi-gun game (which I don't do near enough of). I was thinking about a Saiga 12 and contacted Firebird Engineering about their magwell. I recieved an email saying that they were not doing Saigas anymore and that they were concentrating on the Akdal (which then got me thinking about and Akdal). I have also read things that suggest that the Saigas don't hold up well to competition shooting. Is this true? I played with one of the Akdals at last years' SHOT show and was not really impressed, but of course, it was in its stock configuration (which to me, felt very light and fragile). So anyway back to my question about the Saigas, are they fragile and unreliable? Being of Kalashikov origins, I find it hard to believe, but I don't really know. So which should I persue? A tricked out Saiga 12 or the tricked out Akdal 1919 and please tell me why.

Thanks for your help, although I have a feeling my checkbook is about to get very skinny.

Thanks,

Z

[Alaskapopo]

I was sitting at work daydreaming the other day, when I started thinking about a new shotgun for the multi-gun game (which I don't do near enough of). I was thinking about a Saiga 12 and contacted Firebird Engineering about their magwell. I recieved an email saying that they were not doing Saigas anymore and that they were concentrating on the Akdal (which then got me thinking about and Akdal). I have also read things that suggest that the Saigas don't hold up well to competition shooting. Is this true? I played with one of the Akdals at last years' SHOT show and was not really impressed, but of course, it was in its stock configuration (which to me, felt very light and fragile). So anyway back to my question about the Saigas, are they fragile and unreliable? Being of Kalashikov origins, I find it hard to believe, but I don't really know. So which should I persue? A tricked out Saiga 12 or the tricked out Akdal 1919 and please tell me why.

Thanks for your help, although I have a feeling my checkbook is about to get very skinny.

Thanks,

Z

A tricked out Saiga is a known product from R&R. The Akdal may be just the ticket but its still an unknown. I would wait personally and see what happens.

pat

[MarkCO]

A "tricked out" Saiga will run you a bit north of $3K, and then it may or may not run slugs, or birdshot, or buckshot. Most of the Open guys I know who run Saigas who are not running Firebirds spend a lot of time cleaning and tuning and babying the guns. With all that, a good number (not all) are pretty much spent by the time they get to 6K or 7K rounds. You "might" get a cherry and have better luck, or a lemon and have worse luck. The stampings and general lack of tolerances are not conducive to a quality platform. This is why spend so much money, for the smith to bascially fix up all the bad parts of the gun.

A way tricked out Adkal from Firebird...well under $2K. Better barrels, better receiver, all in all, a much more rugged design...for a lot less money. The money you spend here is upgrading parts while making it 922r compliant. About half the cost and much more familiar, ergonomics controls.

I ended up shooting on a few Open Supersquads with Voight, Miculek, Burkett, Upchurch this year. I saw a lot, and I heard a lot from the top 4 Open shooters in the game. Applying some engineering analysis to the various platforms along with the commetns of the top drivers...very insightful. IF I went Open, no question it would be a Firebird Akdal.

[Doug H.]

A "tricked out" Saiga will run you a bit north of $3K, and then it may or may not run slugs, or birdshot, or buckshot. Most of the Open guys I know who run Saigas who are not running Firebirds spend a lot of time cleaning and tuning and babying the guns. With all that, a good number (not all) are pretty much spent by the time they get to 6K or 7K rounds. You "might" get a cherry and have better luck, or a lemon and have worse luck. The stampings and general lack of tolerances are not conducive to a quality platform. This is why spend so much money, for the smith to bascially fix up all the bad parts of the gun.

A way tricked out Adkal from Firebird...well under $2K. Better barrels, better receiver, all in all, a much more rugged design...for a lot less money. The money you spend here is upgrading parts while making it 922r compliant. About half the cost and much more familiar, ergonomics controls.

I ended up shooting on a few Open Supersquads with Voight, Miculek, Burkett, Upchurch this year. I saw a lot, and I heard a lot from the top 4 Open shooters in the game. Applying some engineering analysis to the various platforms along with the commetns of the top drivers...very insightful. IF I went Open, no question it would be a Firebird Akdal.

I think this guy was looking for information not a Firebird commercial. The Saigas were originally desiged to shoot heavy loads and require some work to shoot the lighter stuff we use in competition. A well built Saiga from any of the companies doing full race conversions should work well with selected ammuntion. The key is to find what they like and keep using the same stuff, not rocket science. As for cleaning, tuning and babying a race Saiga, I clean mine before each match and thats about it and I have not had a failure this year, except for a weak mag spring at Ironman which caused 2 failures to feeds and was fixed with a new spring in minutes.

The Akdal is an unproven platform, we'll see in a couple of seasons how it shakes out, it may or may not be better than the Saiga but only time and competition will tell.

Doug

Edited January 5, 2012 by Doug H.

[Zebraman]

Thanks for the information! Doug, who built your Saiga, and do you have any recommendations as to what parts to use? I am interrested in a new mag well/mag release from a company called TAC 47, and looks to be adaptable to a bullet button set up that can be utilized when I go out of state also. When I was at last years SHOT show, I was able to look at one of the Saigas from R&R. As a result, I have been interrested in a mag fed shotgun, and want to finally give it a try, especially with the new developments. I was thinking about building something like this:

Thanks,

Z

Edited January 5, 2012 by Zebraman

[Chuck Anderson]

Thanks for the information! Doug, who built your Saiga, and do you have any recommendations as to what parts to use? I am interrested in a new mag well/mag release from a company called TAC 47, and looks to be adaptable to a bullet button set up that can be utilized when I go out of state also. I have always been interrested in a mag fed shotgun, and want to finally give it a try, especially with the new developments. I was thinking about building something like this:

Thanks,

Z

Doug, (and I) run R and R Saigas. I know Robbie has a Cal Legal version of his magwell listed. Not sure about the Tac 47. I've got a love hate thing going with my Saiga. It "normally" runs. About 99 percent of the time. I get about one malf out of every hundred rounds. The upside is those malfunctions are very, very easy to clear, normally. It took me awhile to figure out how to actually clean the gun. Took me several months before I figured out I was missing a spot that was building up a bunch of crud in the gas tube. Once I got that figured out, the head of my piston mushroomed over locking the gun up big time. Got that fixed and had a 3rd at Nationals and a 1st at the FB3G match with it. When the thing runs it is absolutely awesome. Just perfection. Easy to shoot, and unbelievably fast. Ergonomically, the R and R, not the Firebird, handles just like an AR. Mag straigt in, AR pistol grip, AR safety. The charge handle is a bit further forward but still on the correct side for off hand manipulation.

As far as the Akdal's go. I think Jim is a freaking genius when it comes to this thing. I shot with him and another one of the Firebird guys at Nationals that was running an un-modded Akdal. Neither of the guns ran 100%. It looked mainly magazine related, but the jams were ugly and time burners to fix. I'm sure Jim is going to get everything sorted out. I just don't think its there yet. Keep in mind this is based on 3-4 month old data and Jim may have everything sorted out by now. I've also heard the Akdal has more recoil than the Saiga, but that was from someone with a vested Saiga interest, I haven't shot one.

To be perfectly honest, if it was me, I wouldn't by anything at this point. Give it 6 months or so, find someone(s) who have each gun and try them out. Both of these platforms are essentially new technology and it takes time to tweak them for our game.

[J-Ho]

One or the other?? Really? haven't we solved this problem already? Buy one of each!

[MarkCO]

SNIP...I clean mine before each match and thats about it and I have not had a failure this year

You do realize we are only 5 days into "this year."

Been reading depositions all day, a tad slap happy and could not resist.

[Doug H.]

SNIP...I clean mine before each match and thats about it and I have not had a failure this year

You do realize we are only 5 days into "this year."

Been reading depositions all day, a tad slap happy and could not resist.

I stand by my reply, but I didn't have any last year either!