Sarge Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) It's been a while so I thought I would get another rules discussion started since. Please keep in mind this is all in the spirit of educating not arguing. So here you go! WSB says the start position is feet on XX's. The rule book says: 8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal". Let's say the XX's are behind a wall and it is always nice to be able to take a look around that wall after make ready. It seems the "norm" is to allow the shooter to use the basketball rule and move one foot. Now for the question. Can the shooter step to the side and place, as an example, his left foot on the right X which will allow him to gain a good bit more visibility around said wall? Is he still in the start location per the rule book even though he is actually not in the start position. Are position and location the same thing in everybody's mind? Should we word WSB's to say "start LOCATION is feet on XX's? Would this preclude the above action. Does anybody really care? I think we should because it can make a huge difference on the right stage. Edited January 5, 2012 by ima45dv8 Proper thread title added at OP's request Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) You truncated 8.3.1.1 and lost the important part: 8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. Additionally, 8.3.1.1 is within the context of 8.3.1: 8.3.1 "Make Ready" – This command signifies the start of "the Course of Fire". Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed. You can't go on to "Are You Ready", "Standby" and "Start Signal" until the shooter assumes the required start position. In the case of the original query, that position is with feet on XX's, not just one foot. Edited January 4, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) I don't see the rest of 8.3.1.1 being relevant. Has an RO ever let a shooter leave the start position if they asked to? I have never seen it. Edit to add: Also I understand you can't start the rest of the commands but my question does not go that far through the procedure. You tell me Make ready, I load up, etc and then put my left foot on the right X and stretch my right foot away from the position did I just leave the start location and incur a procedural? That's what I'm getting at. If you give make ready a shooter can't walk over and look around the wall but can he alter the start position/location to do so? Edited January 4, 2012 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I don't see the rest of 8.3.1.1 being relevant. Has an RO ever let a shooter leave the start position if they asked to? I have never seen it. Yes. For stages with guns or magazines staged on the CoF, if the shooter walks back to the start location, and then wants to double check their gear, I give them permission to go check and walk with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Are position and location the same thing in everybody's mind? from the glossary, pg 58: "Start position . . . . . . . . .The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the “Start signal”. BUT, 8.3.1.1 says "from the LOCATION," not the position. So how far away is "away?" pg 57: Location . . . . . . . . . . . . .A geographical place within a course of fire. How big is the "place?" -rvb Edited January 4, 2012 by rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Are you saying that 8.3.1 allows the shooter to walk away from the start location? It almost reads that way. It almost reads you don't have to assume the start position until the last second. But I thought that was more along the lines of addressing hand position etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Often the shooter will ask may I do a practice draw? What he is really asking is: Can I as I do my LAMR, draw and take a step in the direction I'll be heading so as to acquire a sight picture. Sort of a last practice move before his money run. I don't see a problem so long as he does it ONE TIME and doesn't head off down range. Few will. Usually we tell them, OK, but A> one time only and B> you can only take one step/two steps to clear the edge of the wall. The start POSITION is located in the start LOCATION, a location in the way we have always interpreted it is the general area where you will be starting from, not the specific two XXs your heels will be on at the beep. Is two steps under the direction of the RO moving away from? Maybe, but does it matter? I think not, so long as everyone gets the same treatment. To avoid this USPSA COULD and I would be against it, institute a 30 second rule, shooter comes to the line and from the time he steps into the box until he must assume the start position, he will have 30 seconds max or be dinged a Procedural. maybe the time is too short, but you all get the idea. Do we have a problem? I don't think so. At least not usually. Instituting a rule might cause more people to take more time effectively slowing the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 I don't see the rest of 8.3.1.1 being relevant. Has an RO ever let a shooter leave the start position if they asked to? I have never seen it. Yes. For stages with guns or magazines staged on the CoF, if the shooter walks back to the start location, and then wants to double check their gear, I give them permission to go check and walk with them. I see that but that is a little different than the shooter asking to go take a sight picture around the corner one more time no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Often the shooter will ask may I do a practice draw? What he is really asking is: Can I as I do my LAMR, draw and take a step in the direction I'll be heading so as to acquire a sight picture. Sort of a last practice move before his money run. I don't see a problem so long as he does it ONE TIME and doesn't head off down range. Few will. Usually we tell them, OK, but A> one time only and B> you can only take one step/two steps to clear the edge of the wall. The start POSITION is located in the start LOCATION, a location in the way we have always interpreted it is the general area where you will be starting from, not the specific two XXs your heels will be on at the beep. Is two steps under the direction of the RO moving away from? Maybe, but does it matter? I think not, so long as everyone gets the same treatment. To avoid this USPSA COULD and I would be against it, institute a 30 second rule, shooter comes to the line and from the time he steps into the box until he must assume the start position, he will have 30 seconds max or be dinged a Procedural. maybe the time is too short, but you all get the idea. Do we have a problem? I don't think so. At least not usually. Instituting a rule might cause more people to take more time effectively slowing the match. Good god man, I don't want any more rules! But the shooters are annoying who when their name gets called they start walking the cof again and make you call them back to the start position/location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) I don't see the rest of 8.3.1.1 being relevant. Has an RO ever let a shooter leave the start position if they asked to? I have never seen it. Yes. For stages with guns or magazines staged on the CoF, if the shooter walks back to the start location, and then wants to double check their gear, I give them permission to go check and walk with them. I see that but that is a little different than the shooter asking to go take a sight picture around the corner one more time no? 8.7.1 A competitor is permitted to take a sight picture prior to the start signal. Such sight picture is only permitted from the "Make Ready" location. 8.3.1.1 allows the shooter to move away from the "Make Ready" location with the RO's permission. I usually let shooters do this, but usually only once since only one sight picture is technically allowed. When shooters take multiple sight pictures, I politely remind them that only one sight picture is allowed. Edited January 4, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 If there is a wall in the immediate vicinity that they have to shoot around or something to move around I'll let them take those few steps but I've never seen a shooter at the make ready command draw their gun and dry fire the stage. I've asked permission several times to take a few steps when we have to start outside the shooting area and step into it or start away from a port I have to get to take my first shots but if its more than a few steps your just moving to far in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Everyone has their routine, I for one am slow to get ready, I have to have the plan set. I will go over the first move or position when I step to the line, but I usually don't walk the entire COF. I always thought it strange that the BOD never put a time limit on getting ready to "make ready". Some folks are comical about their routines, if all your mags fit on the last stage, im sure they're going to fit on this one......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) I don't see the rest of 8.3.1.1 being relevant. Has an RO ever let a shooter leave the start position if they asked to? I have never seen it. Yes, let's say the shooter goes to the line and the RO tells them "make ready". the shooter realizes they left their ear protection back in their bag or whatever they need for the stage (magazine, gun, etc.) they tell the RO and the RO will let them go back to retrieve the items. I have seen this happened many times. location and position is not the same thing. Location refers to the general area where the start position is located. Start position is the specific place where your feet and/or body needs to be prior to the start signal. Edited January 4, 2012 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpops Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) You will find, especially shooting Open, that there is a need in checking the dot setting with the different locations on the COF. (shady vs. sun lit targets). I have found, including at the Nationals, as long as you ask for permission first and explain your intentions, the RO's will accommodate you. Just be sure to ask first before stepping away from the X's. I learned my lesson at a major match this past season as I moved around some walls to "dial in". Almost DQ'd. I was unaware of the rule...my fault. Edited January 4, 2012 by Bigpops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 8.3.1.1 allows the shooter to move away from the "Make Ready" location with the RO's permission. I usually let shooters do this, but usually only once since only one sight picture is technically allowed. When shooters take multiple sight pictures, I politely remind them that only one sight picture is allowed. I'm so glad you pointed this out to me. I never noticed the singular language before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 From the Range Officer's Creed: It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior. I've never heard of anyone from the RMI group say that "a sight picture" means "only 1 sight picture." I also have no problem if the shooter needs an extra minute or two when they come to the line. I guess if the match were running way behind it might be a problem, but I still don't see any point in rushing the competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 From the Range Officer's Creed: It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior. I've never heard of anyone from the RMI group say that "a sight picture" means "only 1 sight picture." I also have no problem if the shooter needs an extra minute or two when they come to the line. I guess if the match were running way behind it might be a problem, but I still don't see any point in rushing the competitor. I wouldn't be surprised if it was confusion on my part since when I took the RO class it was at the transition period from the Green book to the Blue book. The Green book still had the IPSC rules in it including that if a sight picture was allowed by a WSB, it could only be on a single target, but US rules allows multiple targets. From what I recall, the instructor at the time emphasized that even with the transition to the Blue book the text still technically says "a sight picture", but just let the shooter go through their rituals of sighting in and visualizing. He did give us some advice about keeping stage moving while balancing it with trying to aid the shooter. If it looks like the shooter is taking a very long time visualizing/rehearsing, at first politely try to get into the ready position by pointing out the "a sight picture" rule. If a second reminder was needed, we could politely "help" the shooter by saying that if he isn't ready, he can be easily be bumped down in the shooting order to give him more time to prepare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 From the Range Officer's Creed: It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior. I've never heard of anyone from the RMI group say that "a sight picture" means "only 1 sight picture." I also have no problem if the shooter needs an extra minute or two when they come to the line. I guess if the match were running way behind it might be a problem, but I still don't see any point in rushing the competitor. While no longer in the RMI group, I never believed the singlular "a" in this rule was limiting to just one. I would hope that if we wanted only one sight picture we would have used the word one. Of course there are limits that at some time you just have to move things along with a gentle word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Texas Granny Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 My personal belief is if you step away from,out of the starting position/ starting box or however you describe it you should be on the clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 While no longer in the RMI group, I never believed the singlular "a" in this rule was limiting to just one. I would hope that if we wanted only one sight picture we would have used the word one. Of course there are limits that at some time you just have to move things along with a gentle word. I'm trying to figure out if there's a meaningful difference between "a" and "one," and struggling to find any relevant difference. I didn't know that the rules involved evaluation of what "we wanted" or any evaluation of intent, but I'm open to suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 My personal belief is if you step away from,out of the starting position/ starting box or however you describe it you should be on the clock. Are you saying that if you step to the line, LAMR, and then realize you left one of your mags on your shooting bag, we should start the clock while you retrieve your mag? I've seen mags and hearing protection left behind while shooters come to the line. If made ready, I'd like someone to bring their bag forward for the shooter, else unload, show clear, and fetch. As for moving (safely) a little to get a sight picture(s)...move, but get back to the start position and assume the position before I start you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Often the shooter will ask may I do a practice draw? What he is really asking is: Can I as I do my LAMR, draw and take a step in the direction I'll be heading so as to acquire a sight picture. Sort of a last practice move before his money run. I don't see a problem so long as he does it ONE TIME and doesn't head off down range. Few will. Usually we tell them, OK, but A> one time only and B> you can only take one step/two steps to clear the edge of the wall. The start POSITION is located in the start LOCATION, a location in the way we have always interpreted it is the general area where you will be starting from, not the specific two XXs your heels will be on at the beep. Is two steps under the direction of the RO moving away from? Maybe, but does it matter? I think not, so long as everyone gets the same treatment. To avoid this USPSA COULD and I would be against it, institute a 30 second rule, shooter comes to the line and from the time he steps into the box until he must assume the start position, he will have 30 seconds max or be dinged a Procedural. maybe the time is too short, but you all get the idea. Do we have a problem? I don't think so. At least not usually. Instituting a rule might cause more people to take more time effectively slowing the match. Good god man, I don't want any more rules! But the shooters are annoying who when their name gets called they start walking the cof again and make you call them back to the start position/location. Walk softly, carry a big stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 My personal belief is if you step away from,out of the starting position/ starting box or however you describe it you should be on the clock. Are you saying that if you step to the line, LAMR, and then realize you left one of your mags on your shooting bag, we should start the clock while you retrieve your mag? I've seen mags and hearing protection left behind while shooters come to the line. If made ready, I'd like someone to bring their bag forward for the shooter, else unload, show clear, and fetch. As for moving (safely) a little to get a sight picture(s)...move, but get back to the start position and assume the position before I start you. You are forgetting that at WTG's range, they can only load and handle magazines at their cars (which coincidentally is also their safety area, but that's a discussion for another thread), so it is assumed that when the shooter gets to the line they have all their mags/gear needed for the CoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Can we please not feed the troll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 It's been a while so I thought I would get another rules discussion started since. Please keep in mind this is all in the spirit of educating not arguing. So here you go! WSB says the start position is feet on XX's. The rule book says: 8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal". Let's say the XX's are behind a wall and it is always nice to be able to take a look around that wall after make ready. It seems the "norm" is to allow the shooter to use the basketball rule and move one foot. Now for the question. Can the shooter step to the side and place, as an example, his left foot on the right X which will allow him to gain a good bit more visibility around said wall? Is he still in the start location per the rule book even though he is actually not in the start position. Are position and location the same thing in everybody's mind? Should we word WSB's to say "start LOCATION is feet on XX's? Would this preclude the above action. Does anybody really care? I think we should because it can make a huge difference on the right stage. Kevin, I let the stage dictate how I run it, and how much leeway I give shooters. On El Pres, no we're not leaving the box..... If the start position is on the 180, I'd prefer the shooter to make ready facing downrange -- even if that means we have to move a few steps.... Some folks need sight pictures, others don't. Some folks have minimal "Make Ready" routines, others take longer. If I get involved in a conversation about that -- we're definitely going to take more time now, as the shooter needs to respond to my query, and then to recenter themselves.... I don't want to start them until they are ready. As a shooter, I don't react kindly to ROs who wish to rush me; and I don't have a long routine.... So long story short, do what's appropriate for the stage, and do that consistently, for every competitor. Ideally the only words you speak are the range commands, or the minimum reminders for assuming the start position, if it becomes obvious that someone forgot something.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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