bob tx Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I do a monthly Multigun Match in the Houston area (for many years now) and am looking for some help for a message I want to be able to send to new 3 gun match competitors. Recent matches have had several new shooters who are (to put it politely) not prepared either in gun handling or match preparation. Everytime I start I get realy annoyed at what I have seen and my message comes off as a rant, not stating expectations What would you include? examples: knowing manual of arms for your weapons of choice Sighted in knowing hold overs You get the idea Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I would say as its a good Idea to have shot a pistol match PRIOR to the first multigun. Had a guy I talked to recently talking about shooting the multigun we have coming up. NEVER shot a pistol match at all. Suggested he try the pistol match first to get more of a feel for the movement, range commands etc in a match with only one gun. He didnt like that suggestion as "he is a good shooter". Its always a good idea to know what your doing before you go out to a multigun which is more complex than a pistol only. I would go with also knowing how to operate the gun you are bringing out to shoot. Nothing is worse than running someone who has no idea how to operate the gun. If someone dosent know how to do basic functions such as unload and load their gun, they have zero business shooting a match. Also, if they are new have them inform the club they have never shot before and give them a different colored score sheet to show those running them that. It is also nice that they not get offended when suggestions are made on how to shoot the COF in a safe manner. ie might wanna ditch the sling as your moving from right to left and your gun sling isnt going to allow your muzzle to point down range(happened guy got VERY offended that "this is how he fights with his sling") A gun that is sighted in definately helps lol I could care less if they know their holdovers as they just miss more if they dont or their gun isnt sighted in. Big thing is can they operate safely and not slow everyone down trying to learn how to operate their gun when they get to the line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I would say shooting pistol only for a while would help. But with all the press 3-gun is getting, some want to jump in with both feet, and I would not want to discourage that either. The more the merrier. The important part is preparation, but helpful hints online, and watching video is not the real thing. They are going to have to screw it up for awhile and as long as they screw it up without being unsafe, they should be able to enjoy the sport. They should know their equipment. I would rather they bring a 5 round 870 that they have been shooting for years than see them unwrapping a new SLP at the trunk of their car (true story). The colored scoresheet is a great idea for 1st timers. Also, putting them with a couple of ROs that are knowledgable and approachable, to help them through. Part of the guidance for the ROs before every BRM3G is that we are there to try to get everyone thru the match, safely. I almost always enjoy having new shooter on my squad at local matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I would also say spread the new shooters out among the squads and don't put them all on one or 2 squads. Been there and it was a nightmare shooting on a squad where there were only 2 of us out of like 10+ who had ever shot a match before. Don't mind new shooters on the squad but with only 2 people who shot before, that means one on timer and one on score card and a very long tiring day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Bassman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I would repeat three times not to load ANY of your firearms until you are instructed to do so. This includes not having any sort of magazine in the firearm (assuming these are also the rules at your club). I've seen a few instances where new shooters had loaded magazines in their pistol when waiting to squad up and start. It's a difficult thing. I believe we're going to see some significant numbers of new shooters in the next couple of years due to the coverage that the sport is receiving. It's a challenge to get new shooters to compete safely with a single firearm. That issue is magnified when you're dealing with three separate weapons. I also think it will be a challenge to convey what you're suggesting with holdovers etc - if you're dealing with true newbies they may have had some .mil experience in their past, or more likely they realized that they have an AR (festooned with lights, grips, and an inexpensive red-dot), an old 870 from the closet, and their Glock (with Korean mags). These guys go to the benchrest range to shoot the rifle a couple times a year, the plinking range to shoot the pistol, and maybe shoot some clay targets in someone's backyard occasionally. In my opinion, the first match is letting them experience what they don't know - safely. If they're going to get into it, they'll ask questions, see what doesn't work, and be back next month with factory mags for the pistol, a real EOtech on the rifle, and the flashlight taken off the shotgun. If they're not going to get into it, they won't come back for a second time. The challenge is getting them through that first match, and allowing natural selection to occur without driving your regulars bat crap crazy. I am afraid I don't know how to convey it in an email, or a match briefing. You want to be welcoming to new blood, but it's also not exactly fair to your experienced shooters to squad them with the guy who's AK can't make it 5 shots without a malfunction. I'm interested to hear how other clubs do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Safety, Safety, Safety. If the shooter's guns aren't zero'ed- no big deal. If they don't know how to clear a malfunction, I'll help them with it. If the muzzle is pointing anywhere other than down range or they are not following trigger discipline- we have a problem. I think it helps when dealing w/ new shooters to only focus on the requirements- muzzle, finger, load and make ready, unload and show clear. If you start trying to go over too much, their eyes become glassy and they start shaking uncontrollably. Make sure they can finish their first match w/out DQing and they'll be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Ditto Bryan! Safety, Safety, Safety!!! We have had very few people show up as newbies too big for their britches. We stress when we talk to them safety AND safety over speed. We tell them we expect them to go slow enough to be very safe! Just like the others: We put them with good RO's (but do try to spread them out). Too many newbies do make for an unfun day for the good RO's. We do coach, if it seems necessary. We do a quick 20-30 minutes "newbie briefing." We go over safety, but also scoring, abandonment, and any weird things that we put in the match this month. E.G. One month, we had a rifle sling. We took a few minutes to get those situated in a nearby berm with empty rifles. If we have places where you can back up, we cover methods to safely do so, etc. We talk about moving and trigger out of the trigger guard, bla,bla! You know! It's kind of nice having all the newbies together. Then they can tell us what they've heard, and we can squash the things that need to be squashed. They also can see there are other people who will not be going quite that fast, so I think it takes some of the pressure off! You know guys??? Want to win at their first match! At the shooter's briefing, I always tell them we'll help them out as much as we can, until they start beating us! Before we even get to the shooter's briefing (and again at it) no ammo in the gun until under RO etc. Once in a while, we let them shoot past time out, so they can have some success. We call misses, to help them get on target. We usually put them at the bottom of the squad so they can watch the rest of us screw up! We coach them to try the more conservative approaches. If someone pushes it a little too much, we will tell them to slow down and watch their muzzle. Did I mention that we stress safety!?!?!? Muzzle control and trigger finger!!! We tell them we may talk to them while they're shooting. AFTER they shoot, we may tell them things they might want to work on in the future. It's 3-Gun!!! Everyone gives them advice!!! We lend equipment if they need it. We tell them to GO SLOW at their first match. For their second match, we ask them to run the board (with someone watching them) once or twice. We wait until later in the day, and don't puch it. But sometimes watching others shoot with an eye on safety and score helps them learn very quickly. It also helps, when the third or fourth time they join us, they can do the board and that frees up one of the regular RO's to help someone else or have some fun! Safety! Safety! Go Slow! Watch! Muzzle! Trigger finger! Safety! Taking a few minutes to talk to the new ones, really helps get them a good mindset and feel more successful throughout the day, even if they're getting beat! Most of them do come back and seem to have a lot of fun! Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) At Rio Salado we give a 20 minute newbie class before every one of our monthly matches. We also recently held an "Introduction to 3-Gun" clinic that went pretty well. It took 4 hours in all; 2 hours in the classroom, followed by 2 hours on the range running through a 3-gun stage. This lets the newbies get familiar with the safety rules, scoring and the real reliability of their equipment in a relatively benign environment. You can download the slides we used here. Edited January 3, 2012 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Definitely hold a New Shooter's Briefing at the start of the match. As for unprepared new shooters, well, be prepared for that. As an aspiring 3-Gun competitor, I find that 3-Gun is a bit different than pistol in that most ranges don't allow one to practice running around with pistol, Rifle, and/or Shotgun at the same time. Most ranges I know of have "pistol only" ranges, "rifle only" ranges, and even fewer allow drawing and movement. I would say that 3-gun, despite it's growing popularity, is one of the more difficult sports to gain practice with at most local ranges, just due to the way most ranges are operated. Take my local club range for example. We have one bay that shooters can draw from holster and move around the bay and shoot on the move. It's a Pistol Caliber only range. So, I can't take my AR over there to practice. We also have a 100 yd rifle range. I can't draw my pistol from a holster and most definitely can't setup a target array and run around shooting it. So, the only way I could get any experience with actually shooting 3 gun is to show up at a real match or go to some clinic (rare). In fact, I'm trying to do just that as I finish decking out my new AR. Now, my point mostly concerns the 3-gun match environment, not so much the shooter's preparedness with his own equipment. You would think it obvious that he/she should show up with sighted optics and know how to operate his/her gear. Not much you can do for that situation, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Take my local club range for example. We have one bay that shooters can draw from holster and move around the bay and shoot on the move. It's a Pistol Caliber only range. So, I can't take my AR over there to practice. We also have a 100 yd rifle range. I can't draw my pistol from a holster and most definitely can't setup a target array and run around shooting it. So, the only way I could get any experience with actually shooting 3 gun is to show up at a real match or go to some clinic (rare). In fact, I'm trying to do just that as I finish decking out my new AR. Can you shoot a 22LR AR on your pistol bay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I like the idea of a newbie briefing as well as indicating on their score sheet that they are a new shooter. Also have the more experienced shooters in the squad walk them through things. Just telling some one "know your manual of arms" isn't going to do much. a lot of people think they know, but they don't. I went to a club as had new shooter written on my card. They didn't know me andI'm not currently a member of IDPA so they watched me close until they new I was safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Take my local club range for example. We have one bay that shooters can draw from holster and move around the bay and shoot on the move. It's a Pistol Caliber only range. So, I can't take my AR over there to practice. ... Can you shoot a 22LR AR on your pistol bay? Yeah, I could, however, knowing from USPSA Pistol competition, you don't really train properly using a .22. However, I suppose it could be useful to get the motions and procedures down right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 We are getting more new shooters lately and that is great. We tell them at the beginning to go slow, be safe and have fun. Dont care about time because it doesnt matter at that point. We will coach and help a new shooter just to ensure they are able to get through the match without being unsafe and having fun, we all were new shooters at one time. We want to see them have a big smile on their faces and come back! And it can be done safely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob tx Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks for the replys. I get 2-3 new shooters each month, whose attitude and experience vary greatly. I already mark new shooter on the score sheet, spread new shooters out amongst the squads and "ASSIGN" a mentor for to them. What got me started was We have had to DQ 2 shooters in the last two matches for safety. Our "long range" is limited to 200 yds with very limited movement and the repercussions of bullets not impacting the berm is unacceptable. What drove me over the edge was 4 new MGM flashers, one at 150 yds, one shooter stuck the cross bar twice and destroyed one of the legs. Just want to put on a match that is safe,challenging,fun and welcoming of new shooters to our game. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks for the replys. I get 2-3 new shooters each month, whose attitude and experience vary greatly. I already mark new shooter on the score sheet, spread new shooters out amongst the squads and "ASSIGN" a mentor for to them. What got me started was We have had to DQ 2 shooters in the last two matches for safety. Our "long range" is limited to 200 yds with very limited movement and the repercussions of bullets not impacting the berm is unacceptable. What drove me over the edge was 4 new MGM flashers, one at 150 yds, one shooter stuck the cross bar twice and destroyed one of the legs. Just want to put on a match that is safe,challenging,fun and welcoming of new shooters to our game. Bob Bob, I shot with some of the new shooters last match. Here is my 2 cents. I/we were all new at one time. None of them were prepared. Is there any way to hold a 3-gun class either during the match, before it, or on a different day to show/teach them how be prepared and what they will need and how to proceed. A couple of the guys did not even have their rifles zeroed. At the long range it was difficult to have any idea of where the shots were going. All had good attitudes and were willing to learn and take advice, but it is tough during the match to do much instructing. Maybe instead of spreading the newbies around have a designated squad with a couple of teaching ro's to help out. My son is just starting 3-gun and I have been able to help him figure it out, but not everyone has that chance. He is going to shoot the January match. I know when I started pistol shooting it was fairly easy to keep track of 1 gun. Kind of overwhelming with 3. Thank goodness several of the great WHIDPA members helped me out. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmdCtzn Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 You need to hold a 3Gun 101 class. Invite all the newer shooters, and brand-new shooters to a class, require attendance if you want. Cover all your concerns in a two or three hour course. I think that is probably your best solution. Make it sound like a welcome to new shooters and an encouragement of new shooters. Most new competitors would love something like that. Heck, you could probably even charge for it if you wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Safety, Safety, Safety. If the shooter's guns aren't zero'ed- no big deal. If they don't know how to clear a malfunction, I'll help them with it. If the muzzle is pointing anywhere other than down range or they are not following trigger discipline- we have a problem. I think it helps when dealing w/ new shooters to only focus on the requirements- muzzle, finger, load and make ready, unload and show clear. If you start trying to go over too much, their eyes become glassy and they start shaking uncontrollably. Make sure they can finish their first match w/out DQing and they'll be back. YES! At Rio Salado we give a 20 minute newbie class before every one of our monthly matches. We also recently held an "Introduction to 3-Gun" clinic that went pretty well. It took 4 hours in all; 2 hours in the classroom, followed by 2 hours on the range running through a 3-gun stage. This lets the newbies get familiar with the safety rules, scoring and the real reliability of their equipment in a relatively benign environment. You can download the slides we used here. YES, which we are doing late February here in Colorado, using what they prepared. I've not decided yet if I am going to impersonate Richard or Kelley yet, but I have both face cut-outs ready. Edited January 3, 2012 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What drove me over the edge was 4 new MGM flashers, one at 150 yds, one shooter stuck the cross bar twice and destroyed one of the legs. Bob I have seen veteran competitors do this. What relevance does this have to the expectations of a new shooter. This is not a safety issue is it? My expectations of new shooters is exactly the same as any shooter. I do not lower or raise expectations for anyone. We do give new shooters a little more coaching in order to help them learn, as has been mentioned, we were all the new shooter at one point in time. Historicly at our club we have had to dq more seasoned shooters than first timers. We find the majority of new shooters eager to have as safe an experiance as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullauto_Shooter Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What drove me over the edge was 4 new MGM flashers, one at 150 yds, one shooter stuck the cross bar twice and destroyed one of the legs. Bob I have seen veteran competitors do this. What relevance does this have to the expectations of a new shooter. This is not a safety issue is it? Totally agree. You really can't put stuff down-range at a shooting match and not expect it to get shot at some point. I'm sure the shooter didn't do it on purpose and replacing / repairing damaged targets and props just goes along with being an MD. Now if he used green-tip penetrators on steel, that'd be a different story. If it's gonna break your heart if it gets shot, then don't put it down range or use it as a prop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Bassman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 You need to hold a 3Gun 101 class. Invite all the newer shooters, and brand-new shooters to a class, require attendance if you want. Cover all your concerns in a two or three hour course. I think that is probably your best solution. Make it sound like a welcome to new shooters and an encouragement of new shooters. Most new competitors would love something like that. Heck, you could probably even charge for it if you wanted. While I like the idea of the class, most of our new shooters seem to be of the "Hey want to come to the 3 gun match with me tomorrow?" variety. Would you turn away the newbie knowing they would probably take the other with them? IMHO, anyone who's willing to take a 3Gun 101 course has probably also researched it enough to be an informed first shooter. I dunno. It's a difficult balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob tx Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 mpeltier: It is a safety issue, as we move to greater distances this shooter risks putting one over the berm. We try to coach as we can. Again I welcome alot of new shooters and am always selling the fun and benefits to all I meet. Stealty blogger, thanks for the download. I have been tossing around the idea of a 3 gun 101 and I believe the discussion here has convinced me that this would only be a positive experience. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmdCtzn Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 You need to hold a 3Gun 101 class. Invite all the newer shooters, and brand-new shooters to a class, require attendance if you want. Cover all your concerns in a two or three hour course. I think that is probably your best solution. Make it sound like a welcome to new shooters and an encouragement of new shooters. Most new competitors would love something like that. Heck, you could probably even charge for it if you wanted. While I like the idea of the class, most of our new shooters seem to be of the "Hey want to come to the 3 gun match with me tomorrow?" variety. Would you turn away the newbie knowing they would probably take the other with them? IMHO, anyone who's willing to take a 3Gun 101 course has probably also researched it enough to be an informed first shooter. I dunno. It's a difficult balance. You don't have to turn anybody away if you don't want to. I think the people you're talking about are just as likely to say, "Hey, you want to come to the 3 gun class with me tomorrow?" There is no perfect solution. A class would probably help a lot of people out, including you. Will it cover everybody? Nope, nothing will. Don't fall into the trap of paralysis of analysis. You're right, it's a balance, and every situation is different. A club with a big, thriving three-gun division will have a different approach than a club trying to get a new three-gun division off the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Safety, Safety, Safety. If the shooter's guns aren't zero'ed- no big deal. If they don't know how to clear a malfunction, I'll help them with it. If the muzzle is pointing anywhere other than down range or they are not following trigger discipline- we have a problem. I think it helps when dealing w/ new shooters to only focus on the requirements- muzzle, finger, load and make ready, unload and show clear. If you start trying to go over too much, their eyes become glassy and they start shaking uncontrollably. Make sure they can finish their first match w/out DQing and they'll be back. The only thing I will dissagree with is "if the guns aren't zeroed no big deal." It is a big deal. Where the bullet lands can be very catastrophic. At 10-20 yards it is no big deal. At 200-300 it is a big deal. Let just say we stopped one newbie cause we couldn't tell where his rounds were going and his rifle was not zeroed and another had his Eotech fall off right after he shot. Fortunetly we could see his rounds impact. This is all part of being prepared for the match and understanding all the aspects of safety. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Safety, Safety, Safety. If the shooter's guns aren't zero'ed- no big deal. If they don't know how to clear a malfunction, I'll help them with it. If the muzzle is pointing anywhere other than down range or they are not following trigger discipline- we have a problem. I think it helps when dealing w/ new shooters to only focus on the requirements- muzzle, finger, load and make ready, unload and show clear. If you start trying to go over too much, their eyes become glassy and they start shaking uncontrollably. Make sure they can finish their first match w/out DQing and they'll be back. YES! At Rio Salado we give a 20 minute newbie class before every one of our monthly matches. We also recently held an "Introduction to 3-Gun" clinic that went pretty well. It took 4 hours in all; 2 hours in the classroom, followed by 2 hours on the range running through a 3-gun stage. This lets the newbies get familiar with the safety rules, scoring and the real reliability of their equipment in a relatively benign environment. You can download the slides we used here. YES, which we are doing late February here in Colorado, using what they prepared. I've not decided yet if I am going to impersonate Richard or Kelley yet, but I have both face cut-outs ready. I'd go with the Richard mask, myself. I agree with the safety, safety, safety comments. That being said, you also want them to have some success so a zeroed rifle is a kinda must have accessory. New (and not so new) shooters seem to struggle with 3 things the most: 1) Safety: Moving with their fingers on triggers, 180 violations (which can be easy with the long guns too), etc. 2) Equipment manipulation: shotgun loading, gun transitions, loading/unloading process 3) Thinking their 50 yard rifle zero makes them ready for a real 3 gun rifle stage (if they've bothered to zero at all!) I hope our 3 gun class at Rio was a success. That class really showed me how difficult 3 gun really is as there are so many things to try an master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmdCtzn Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Judging by the slides alone, I'd say your 3-Gun class had to be a great success. That looks very well done. Great job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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