p5200 Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I've noticed WWB and Remington factory 115gr. loads are around 1.164-65" OAL but, most of the data in my load data manuals calls for 1.100" or a little less? should I be trying different OALs with my loads within maximum/minimum limits or, does the powder charge have to be increased slightly to compensate? Thanks for all info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 OAL depends on the bullet used. Chances are WWB vs. loading manual vs. what you have on your bench will all be different. When working up a new load: Pull the barrel out of your gun and seat a bullet very long. Hold the barrel muzzle down and drop the round into the chamber. The 9mm is supposed to headspace on the mouth of the case. With this long first round the ogive of the bullet will contact the rifling and prevent the round from properly headspacing. It will be obvious what is happening as the round will seat softly in the chamber and will stick out the breech way too far. (round may even stick in the rifling a bit). Put the round back in the press and seat the bullet further; a lot of you are way off maybe only another .010" if you think you are close. Basically you want to seat the bullet .010", trial fit, and repeat until the you feel the case headstacing on the mouth of the case and not the bullet. It will be obvious as when the case mouth hits the chamber as it will be a hard metal to metal stop. Then seat the bullet another .020-.030". The end result is a round that properly headspaces on the mouth of the case with the ogive of the bullet .020-.030" off the rifling of the bore. This link may be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've noticed WWB and Remington factory 115gr. loads are around 1.164-65" OAL p5200, I haven't measured them but that seems quite long for factory ammo? I would guess they measure 1.064" , not 1.164" ?? My 9mm minor usually loads to 1.130" and 9mm major to 1.165", a noticeable difference. I've never seen factory 9mm minor loads as long as my 9mm major reloads. Pls accept my apology if I'm incorrect, but if I'm correct, you might be reading the calipers incorrectly. That can lead to a serious problem down the road. Good luck, Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p5200 Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 OAL depends on the bullet used. Chances are WWB vs. loading manual vs. what you have on your bench will all be different. When working up a new load: Pull the barrel out of your gun and seat a bullet very long. Hold the barrel muzzle down and drop the round into the chamber. The 9mm is supposed to headspace on the mouth of the case. With this long first round the ogive of the bullet will contact the rifling and prevent the round from properly headspacing. It will be obvious what is happening as the round will seat softly in the chamber and will stick out the breech way too far. (round may even stick in the rifling a bit). Put the round back in the press and seat the bullet further; a lot of you are way off maybe only another .010" if you think you are close. Basically you want to seat the bullet .010", trial fit, and repeat until the you feel the case headstacing on the mouth of the case and not the bullet. It will be obvious as when the case mouth hits the chamber as it will be a hard metal to metal stop. Then seat the bullet another .020-.030". That's a lot of valuable info Thanks! Hi-Power Jack, I'm pretty sure I was reading the calipers right but, I'll check again. The end result is a round that properly headspaces on the mouth of the case with the ogive of the bullet .020-.030" off the rifling of the bore. This link may be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p5200 Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 I just checked another round out of the same box of Winchester White box and it was 1.163" with 2 different calipers. maybe, it's the difference in powders they use in factory ammo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizzle Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I just had the same conversation with a friend because white box is indeed very long. Don't know why but it shoots great. My reloads, however, are 1.140 with 115's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Spec OAL for round nose FMJ 9mm is 1.169". Factory round nose loads are generally between 1.160" and 1.170". This length range is where you will get the best function, as literally all 9mm guns are designed around it. However, you may get better accuracy by loading shorter, though you will have to experiment to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p5200 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Well, since I know my gun will handle up to 1.165" COL should I experiment with a little longer than the 1.1" usually recommended for my 115gr. fmj OALs? Or would I have to increase the powder charge slightly? I've been wanting to try a little longer OALs like I do with my rifle loads but, wanted to check with you more experienced pistol loaders. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck223 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Being a bit conservative, I always start with the longest OAL the mag and chamber will take and then adjust down if needed. The slight exception to the rule is when loading JHP or Truncated cone bullets, since they seem to benefit from a bit of running room. I tend to start them around 1.125 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckell101 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 One thing to also consider is that most of all manufacturers are producing ammo to run is all pistols, and have a minimalistic failure percentage. In my experience and I know I will cause quite a stir, but you can make the OAL as long as you want it as long as it fits in the mag. I know several guys who do that and don't even sweat the OAL. Me? My OAL is set to exactly what the Lyman manual says it should be. One interesting concept to also consider is that when I case gauge factory ammo, it rarely fits into my case gauges. Makes you really reevaluate ever shooting factory ammo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k. easton Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 My OAL is about 1.140 with 124gr bullets(works in mac m11/9, uzi, xd9 and 2011 millenium custom). I mostly shoot subguns so typically the longer the better. If I was only loading for one gun, the longest i can put in the mag works best for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 WWB is loaded with a 115gr hollow based FMJ which is very long, hence the long OAL. Many115 FMJs on the market are very short and have a flat base, hence the shorter recommended OAL. If you want to duplicate the WWB OAL, get some 115gr HB FMJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop51 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I have been having some random double feeds from my reloads in my brand new G34 so I decided to go back to the drawing board on a few things. I started by running only factory ammo (WWB) through the gun to see if it would have any malfs. It did not. So, I determined it is ammo related. Seeing as how two G34's had the EXACT same issue, one of them is essentially brand new (under 1000 rounds) and new mags, I determined its my reloads. Knowing that, I decided the most likely issue was the length of my loads. I was loading a 125gn Zero JHP to 1.140" for my G34. The WWB 115gn FMJ load is 1.160 on the dot, every one I checked, just as someone mentioned. Knowing that, I decided to load a test batch of the Zero's to 1.155 and see if function improved (keep in mind, the Zero is a CONICAL JHP vs a round ogive FMJ bullet). I just did that last night so I should have some results by Saturday. Hoping this fixes my issue. It should be noted, my old load is VERY accurate. I am definitely concerned the added length will cause me to lose some accuracy. We'll see! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reptoid Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) I have been having some random double feeds from my reloads in my brand new G34 so I decided to go back to the drawing board on a few things. I started by running only factory ammo (WWB) through the gun to see if it would have any malfs. It did not. So, I determined it is ammo related. Seeing as how two G34's had the EXACT same issue, one of them is essentially brand new (under 1000 rounds) and new mags, I determined its my reloads. Knowing that, I decided the most likely issue was the length of my loads. I was loading a 125gn Zero JHP to 1.140" for my G34. The WWB 115gn FMJ load is 1.160 on the dot, every one I checked, just as someone mentioned. Knowing that, I decided to load a test batch of the Zero's to 1.155 and see if function improved (keep in mind, the Zero is a CONICAL JHP vs a round ogive FMJ bullet). I just did that last night so I should have some results by Saturday. Hoping this fixes my issue. It should be noted, my old load is VERY accurate. I am definitely concerned the added length will cause me to lose some accuracy. We'll see! Hope you chamber checked those because in my G34 I shoot that bullet alot and it will not fully chamber if over 1.140" Most accurate length in mine is 1.125"-1.130" (it touches the lands at 1.140") A double feed is almost never caused by overall length but by short stroking from too little power. too long or short will cause "nose dive" ,"3 point", or failure to go into battery. Differant shape bullets will require differant seating depths and if you change bullets: type, shape, weight, etc. you should check the depth at which it contacts the rifling using an empty before loading them. Edited January 27, 2012 by reptoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9mmMike Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Winchester loads their 115 grain FMJ looong... They also crimp the bullet tight.. Pull one and you can see the deformity that it causes.. Shoots great in everything I have, albeit a little too slow for my liking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 OAL depends on the bullet used. Chances are WWB vs. loading manual vs. what you have on your bench will all be different. When working up a new load: Pull the barrel out of your gun and seat a bullet very long. Hold the barrel muzzle down and drop the round into the chamber. The 9mm is supposed to headspace on the mouth of the case. With this long first round the ogive of the bullet will contact the rifling and prevent the round from properly headspacing. It will be obvious what is happening as the round will seat softly in the chamber and will stick out the breech way too far. (round may even stick in the rifling a bit). Put the round back in the press and seat the bullet further; a lot of you are way off maybe only another .010" if you think you are close. Basically you want to seat the bullet .010", trial fit, and repeat until the you feel the case headstacing on the mouth of the case and not the bullet. It will be obvious as when the case mouth hits the chamber as it will be a hard metal to metal stop. Then seat the bullet another .020-.030". The end result is a round that properly headspaces on the mouth of the case with the ogive of the bullet .020-.030" off the rifling of the bore. This link may be useful. This is how I've always done it every time I change bullets. This works really well for function for sure. It hasn't seemed to change my overall accuracy either really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop51 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I have been having some random double feeds from my reloads in my brand new G34 so I decided to go back to the drawing board on a few things. I started by running only factory ammo (WWB) through the gun to see if it would have any malfs. It did not. So, I determined it is ammo related. Seeing as how two G34's had the EXACT same issue, one of them is essentially brand new (under 1000 rounds) and new mags, I determined its my reloads. Knowing that, I decided the most likely issue was the length of my loads. I was loading a 125gn Zero JHP to 1.140" for my G34. The WWB 115gn FMJ load is 1.160 on the dot, every one I checked, just as someone mentioned. Knowing that, I decided to load a test batch of the Zero's to 1.155 and see if function improved (keep in mind, the Zero is a CONICAL JHP vs a round ogive FMJ bullet). I just did that last night so I should have some results by Saturday. Hoping this fixes my issue. It should be noted, my old load is VERY accurate. I am definitely concerned the added length will cause me to lose some accuracy. We'll see! Hope you chamber checked those because in my G34 I shoot that bullet alot and it will not fully chamber if over 1.140" Most accurate length in mine is 1.125"-1.130" (it touches the lands at 1.140") A double feed is almost never caused by overall length but by short stroking from too little power. too long or short will cause "nose dive" ,"3 point", or failure to go into battery. Differant shape bullets will require differant seating depths and if you change bullets: type, shape, weight, etc. you should check the depth at which it contacts the rifling using an empty before loading them. I did chamber check them, nothing unusual. It seems odd you cant load longer than 1.140". WWB has a "fatter" ogive and would be more likely to contact the lands sooner than the conical Zero I would think. I should probably clarify what I meant by "double feed". The standard definition would be a spent case is still in the chamber, fresh round tries to feed. Thats not what my gun does. It ejects the empty and then TWO fresh rounds try to enter at the same time. When you look in the gun, one round is on top, nose pointed down into the chamber, second round is on the bottom, nose pointed up in the chamber. To me, this is the top round "nose diving" and allowing the second round to be stripped with it causing the malf. I THINK the round is nose diving because of 1. the conical shape of the bullet and 2. the fact the OAL is too short allowing for more tilt against the follower. Just a theory I am working on. Only MY ammo causes this malf so something is amiss. And like I said, I have had this exact same malf on two G34's. The second one is brand new as is the magazines being used. Only commonality is the ammo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scootertheshooter Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I have all my 9mm at 1.12 because it feeds reliably and accurate in all 4 of my guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reptoid Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) I have been having some random double feeds from my reloads in my brand new G34 so I decided to go back to the drawing board on a few things. I started by running only factory ammo (WWB) through the gun to see if it would have any malfs. It did not. So, I determined it is ammo related. Seeing as how two G34's had the EXACT same issue, one of them is essentially brand new (under 1000 rounds) and new mags, I determined its my reloads. Knowing that, I decided the most likely issue was the length of my loads. I was loading a 125gn Zero JHP to 1.140" for my G34. The WWB 115gn FMJ load is 1.160 on the dot, every one I checked, just as someone mentioned. Knowing that, I decided to load a test batch of the Zero's to 1.155 and see if function improved (keep in mind, the Zero is a CONICAL JHP vs a round ogive FMJ bullet). I just did that last night so I should have some results by Saturday. Hoping this fixes my issue. It should be noted, my old load is VERY accurate. I am definitely concerned the added length will cause me to lose some accuracy. We'll see! Hope you chamber checked those because in my G34 I shoot that bullet alot and it will not fully chamber if over 1.140" Most accurate length in mine is 1.125"-1.130" (it touches the lands at 1.140") A double feed is almost never caused by overall length but by short stroking from too little power. too long or short will cause "nose dive" ,"3 point", or failure to go into battery. Differant shape bullets will require differant seating depths and if you change bullets: type, shape, weight, etc. you should check the depth at which it contacts the rifling using an empty before loading them. I did chamber check them, nothing unusual. It seems odd you cant load longer than 1.140". WWB has a "fatter" ogive and would be more likely to contact the lands sooner than the conical Zero I would think. I should probably clarify what I meant by "double feed". The standard definition would be a spent case is still in the chamber, fresh round tries to feed. Thats not what my gun does. It ejects the empty and then TWO fresh rounds try to enter at the same time. When you look in the gun, one round is on top, nose pointed down into the chamber, second round is on the bottom, nose pointed up in the chamber. To me, this is the top round "nose diving" and allowing the second round to be stripped with it causing the malf. I THINK the round is nose diving because of 1. the conical shape of the bullet and 2. the fact the OAL is too short allowing for more tilt against the follower. Just a theory I am working on. Only MY ammo causes this malf so something is amiss. And like I said, I have had this exact same malf on two G34's. The second one is brand new as is the magazines being used. Only commonality is the ammo. If you do a few searchs you will find many shooters loading conical bullets like the Zero, Hornady HAP, PD 124 JHP, etc etc etc from OAL's between 1.100" and 1.150" that function perfect in any Glock 9mm including the G34. The zero 125 JHP conical will hit the lands sooner than the winchester white box bullet when loaded to the same OAL Check for yourself. You can probably load and fire the Zero 125 conical @ 1.155" but I found it to be more accurate at 1.125" or 1.130". If you follow the proceedure listed more than once in this thread to determine the "correct" OAL for any new bullet you try, you will save yourself alot of trouble. Start by seating at a length you're sure is too long and shorten gradually per the procedure listed earlier. Your malfunction theory about length and bullet shape is not correct. I have fired literally thousands of 125GR Zero Conicals, Hornady Haps, and PD 124 JHP's loaded at 1.125"- 1.130" out of my Glock 34 and Never had a FTFeed, FTFire or FTE. (yes, not even 1) Not trying to be disrespectful. Just trying to help you determine the real cause for the malfunction. Good luck Edited January 28, 2012 by reptoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 My G34s will actually chamber my 9 Major loads, MG 124gr JHPs at 1.175"! Of course, at that length they won't fit in the magazines, which is probably a good thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop51 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I have been having some random double feeds from my reloads in my brand new G34 so I decided to go back to the drawing board on a few things. I started by running only factory ammo (WWB) through the gun to see if it would have any malfs. It did not. So, I determined it is ammo related. Seeing as how two G34's had the EXACT same issue, one of them is essentially brand new (under 1000 rounds) and new mags, I determined its my reloads. Knowing that, I decided the most likely issue was the length of my loads. I was loading a 125gn Zero JHP to 1.140" for my G34. The WWB 115gn FMJ load is 1.160 on the dot, every one I checked, just as someone mentioned. Knowing that, I decided to load a test batch of the Zero's to 1.155 and see if function improved (keep in mind, the Zero is a CONICAL JHP vs a round ogive FMJ bullet). I just did that last night so I should have some results by Saturday. Hoping this fixes my issue. It should be noted, my old load is VERY accurate. I am definitely concerned the added length will cause me to lose some accuracy. We'll see! Hope you chamber checked those because in my G34 I shoot that bullet alot and it will not fully chamber if over 1.140" Most accurate length in mine is 1.125"-1.130" (it touches the lands at 1.140") A double feed is almost never caused by overall length but by short stroking from too little power. too long or short will cause "nose dive" ,"3 point", or failure to go into battery. Differant shape bullets will require differant seating depths and if you change bullets: type, shape, weight, etc. you should check the depth at which it contacts the rifling using an empty before loading them. I did chamber check them, nothing unusual. It seems odd you cant load longer than 1.140". WWB has a "fatter" ogive and would be more likely to contact the lands sooner than the conical Zero I would think. I should probably clarify what I meant by "double feed". The standard definition would be a spent case is still in the chamber, fresh round tries to feed. Thats not what my gun does. It ejects the empty and then TWO fresh rounds try to enter at the same time. When you look in the gun, one round is on top, nose pointed down into the chamber, second round is on the bottom, nose pointed up in the chamber. To me, this is the top round "nose diving" and allowing the second round to be stripped with it causing the malf. I THINK the round is nose diving because of 1. the conical shape of the bullet and 2. the fact the OAL is too short allowing for more tilt against the follower. Just a theory I am working on. Only MY ammo causes this malf so something is amiss. And like I said, I have had this exact same malf on two G34's. The second one is brand new as is the magazines being used. Only commonality is the ammo. If you do a few searchs you will find many shooters loading conical bullets like the Zero, Hornady HAP, PD 124 JHP, etc etc etc from OAL's between 1.100" and 1.150" that function perfect in any Glock 9mm including the G34. The zero 125 JHP conical will hit the lands sooner than the winchester white box bullet when loaded to the same OAL Check for yourself. You can probably load and fire the Zero 125 conical @ 1.155" but I found it to be more accurate at 1.125" or 1.130". If you follow the proceedure listed more than once in this thread to determine the "correct" OAL for any new bullet you try, you will save yourself alot of trouble. Start by seating at a length you're sure is too long and shorten gradually per the procedure listed earlier. Your malfunction theory about length and bullet shape is not correct. I have fired literally thousands of 125GR Zero Conicals, Hornady Haps, and PD 124 JHP's loaded at 1.125"- 1.130" out of my Glock 34 and Never had a FTFeed, FTFire or FTE. (yes, not even 1) Not trying to be disrespectful. Just trying to help you determine the real cause for the malfunction. Good luck I did search previously to determine the "standard" length people loaded these bullets to. I also did follow the procedure to determine max OAL and found it to be longer than the 1.150". Loading the Zero's long was an experiment to see if it was more reliable. Accuracy was not the goal as right now, I cant run 100 rounds through the gun without a malfunction. I shot the longer ammo on Saturday and the gun wouldnt even cycle. It routinely hung up feeding the longer load in. The round started up the feed ramp but then hung just as it was about to clear the magazine. I was, however, able to put the longer load in my M&P Pro and it loved it. Was even slightly more accurate with the longer load. At this point, these are the facts. I know that the load makes minor PF (about 1080fps). All rounds were case gauged and passed with no issues. Both MG conicals and Zero conicals cause the issue. No "traditional" profile bullet of any weight has ever caused the issue. I shot 100 WWB rounds and some reloads using a standard profile bullet on Sunday, no malfs at all. At this point, I am out of ideas. It was suggested to be to shorten up the loads and/or switch to a lighter recoil spring (I am using a 15 lbs. spring now) to see if perhaps the gun is sometimes short stroking and picking up the top round from the mag is an unusual manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1SOW Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) mcracco, on 02 January 2012 - 06:45 AM, said: OAL depends on the bullet used. Chances are WWB vs. loading manual vs. what you have on your bench will all be different. When working up a new load: Pull the barrel out of your gun and seat a bullet very long. Hold the barrel muzzle down and drop the round into the chamber. The 9mm is supposed to headspace on the mouth of the case. With this long first round the ogive of the bullet will contact the rifling and prevent the round from properly headspacing. It will be obvious what is happening as the round will seat softly in the chamber and will stick out the breech way too far. (round may even stick in the rifling a bit). Put the round back in the press and seat the bullet further; a lot of you are way off maybe only another .010" if you think you are close. Basically you want to seat the bullet .010", trial fit, and repeat until the you feel the case headstacing on the mouth of the case and not the bullet. It will be obvious as when the case mouth hits the chamber as it will be a hard metal to metal stop. Then seat the bullet another .020-.030". The end result is a round that properly headspaces on the mouth of the case with the ogive of the bullet .020-.030" off the rifling of the bore. This link may be useful. One thing you might want to add to this technique: Use a "spent UNsized case" and seat your new bullet by hand, just far enough into the case to hold it. Then with the BBL out of the pistol carefully insert the dummy cartridge into the chamber and slowly push it in firmly until it seats on the case mouth. Turn the BBL up and carefully pull the the dummy cartridge back out and measure it. This is the oal that is "touching" the rifling. Do this with a couple more until you have a consistent "max oal". Then subtract .015" from that length to get get a MAX Usable oal. IN THAT PISTOL with THAT bullet. Every pistol and bullet can be different. If your loading for multiple pistols, use the one with the shortest chamber so your load will fit them all. The additional .015" headspace allows for reloader, press and bullet nose-shape variations that do occur plus a little headspace. Hope this makes sense. Edited February 1, 2012 by 1SOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reptoid Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) If I were you, I would try 1.130"-1.140" and a standard 17lb recoil spring. I'll bet it will run all day Edited February 1, 2012 by reptoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcracco Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Use a "spent UNsized case" and seat your new bullet by hand, just far enough into the case to hold it. Then with the BBL out of the pistol carefully insert the dummy cartridge into the chamber and slowly push it in firmly until it seats on the case mouth. Turn the BBL up and carefully pull the the dummy cartridge back out and measure it. This is the oal that is "touching" the rifling. Do this with a couple more until you have a consistent "max oal". Then subtract .015" from that length to get get a MAX Usable oal. IN THAT PISTOL with THAT bullet. Every pistol and bullet can be different. If your loading for multiple pistols, use the one with the shortest chamber so your load will fit them all. The additional .015" headspace allows for reloader, press and bullet nose-shape variations that do occur plus a little headspace. Great technique to achieve the same results. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loop51 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 If I were you, I would try 1.130"-1.140" and a standard 17lb recoil spring. I'll bet it will run all day Any reason why the stock spring would help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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